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Is Java losing the war to .Net, Flex, ...

Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
It looks like Java is losing its ground even it is backed by IBM and Oracle. I do not want to mention Java's originator ...


"Knowing is not enough, you must apply... Willing is not enough, you must do."
--Bruce Lee
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
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  65

Again? Has not this topic already been beat to death on numerous occasions?


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Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Bear Bibeault wrote:Again? Has not this topic already been beat to death on numerous occasions?

Where?

Even your claim is true, there is nothing wrong to talk it again. I want to discuses why it's happening.
I think one of the reasons is that there are too many "beautifully architected" open source frameworks.
The proprietary-based MS must be smiling now.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18135
    
  39

Even your claim is true, there is nothing wrong to talk it again. I want to discuses why it's happening.



Actually, no... JavaRanch is a moderated site. Any discussion that can lead to a flame war generally do not last very long -- which is why you are asking "where?", as previous incarnations are gone.

Henry


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Ulf Dittmer
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Joined: Mar 22, 2005
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  27
Let's assume that the answer is "no", because then it's not happening, and we don't need to discuss the "why". :-)


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Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Ulf Dittmer wrote:Let's assume that the answer is "no", because then it's not happening, and we don't need to discuss the "why". :-)


It is happening. Why do developers need to know so many no-substance frameworks to build a simple business application? Middle ware should be
the simplest tier, but "smart" inventors created so many different open source frameworks to confuse users that middle tier becomes most troubled
part in an application. Business users are saying Java becomes harder and harder to use, it would take twice of the time as .Net to build something that
make senses.

I'm not sure whether MS is behind those open source frameworks or not. If I were Bill, I would do it.

BTW, to the really smart inventors: There are so many real hard problems in the world we need to solve, For example, energy is one of them...
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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  65

Todd Jain wrote:Why do developers need to know so many no-substance frameworks to build a simple business application?


Need? Need? I use none of them and get along very well thank you.

Or are you saying that having a wide variety of tools and libraries to choose from is somehow a bad thing?

Mike Isano
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Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 144
Bear Bibeault wrote:
Todd Jain wrote:Why do developers need to know so many no-substance frameworks to build a simple business application?


Need? Need? I use none of them and get along very well thank you.

Or are you saying that having a wide variety of tools and libraries to choose from is somehow a bad thing?



A wide variety of tools can be a bad thing. It does create competition driven improvement but other than that it's all bad.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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  65

Mike Isano wrote:It does create competition driven improvement but other than that it's all bad.
Because?

I don't care for many of them, but I fail to see how choice is a bad thing.
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
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Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24168
    
  30

Y'all want pie? Ah gots some out back.


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Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Bear Bibeault wrote:
Mike Isano wrote:It does create competition driven improvement but other than that it's all bad.
Because?

I don't care for many of them, but I fail to see how choice is a bad thing.


I'm not sure using a wheel to drive a Motor Cycle is a good choice. A standard human interface is important although you can always
choice from different makers. I hope this analogy works.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
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  65

I'm usually partial to cream pies. But lately have been taken with lattice-work cherries.



Bobby Sharma
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Joined: Mar 18, 2008
Posts: 550
    
    1

I am starving and covetous to pie , Bear

In my territory ,they don't make pie ,donut and waffle what I really love.Few months ago I ordered some pack of waffles
from Amazon. hehe

Well some bakeries sell pie and donut here but quality is not good.

Now , as to the topic ,In my area .Net has surely been surpassed JEE.But there is people like
me who are reluctant to work in .Net and php.

As far as I think .Net can never beat Java because ..
1)It's proud to tell people "I am Java guy". You can name yourself JPanther, JTiger,JDragon,JOmi etc. LOL
2)There is millions of swing lovers.
3)Billions of peoples love Coffee(Java).

by the way, there is open topic created by me,please feel free to reply.

best regards,
Omi


Back to Java , again.
Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Bear Bibeault wrote:I'm usually partial to cream pies. But lately have been taken with lattice-work cherries.





You still need some interfaces to eat it: fork, knife, spoon, ...
Some people may use hands directly. Animals (dogs, cats, bears, ...) use mouths only.

Some smart people is creating a beautifully-architected machine called "Summer" to skip fork, knife, and spoon, and put the food in the mouth.
I'm not sure I want to use Summer.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18135
    
  39

I'm usually partial to cream pies. But lately have been taken with lattice-work cherries.



Personally, I think a picture of the pie, after it comes out of the oven, would be more mouth watering. Seeing a picture of a pie before it went into the oven, is just not as tempting.

Henry
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
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  65

I think that pie is cooked -- but it looks like they forgot the egg wash so it didn't brown like it should.

Is this one more appetizing? ;)


Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
omi sharma wrote:I am starving and covetous to pie , Bear

...
1)It's proud to tell people "I am Java guy".
...

Omi


I started playing with Java in 1996, and have been seriously writing Java code since 1997. So I'm a Java guy, but not proudly.
Before programming in Java, I used C/C++, especially VC++. Early Java is much better than C++. Later, SUN introduced
the beautiful EJB, then someone suggested "developing J2EE w/o EJB", then many smart developers are writing new open source frameworks
to replace EJB, then SUN released Java 5 and EJB3, then everyone has their own frameworks for something: unit test, build, ria, o-r mapping, ...
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18135
    
  39

I think that pie is cooked -- but it looks like they forgot the egg wash so it didn't brown like it should.


Really?!? it looks more than "didn't brown like it should". Even the cherries looks like, it haven't been brought up to temperature.

And yes, the new picture looks much more tempting...

Henry

Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Posts: 60071
    
  65

Next time I make one of my own, I'll take a photo (with my new macro lens). That'll be sure to make your mouth water!
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18135
    
  39

..... I'll take a photo (with my new macro lens)....



Don't get me started on that !! ...

I have been looking for a good macro lens (with decent range) for my wife's Nikon SLR for years. And can't seem to find one...

Cm'on... My Panasonic point and shoot, has the equivalent of 28 to 280, and with Macro capability. Nikon doesn't seem to have a macro, that has decent wide angle and telephoto.

Henry
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Todd Jain wrote:I started playing with Java in 1996, and have been seriously writing Java code since 1997. So I'm a Java guy, but not proudly.
...the beautiful EJB,.... replace EJB


Same timing for me. I have never heard EJB called beautiful before. How is this statements of claims germain to .net/flex/php/ruby taking over the world?

M$ has incentives to push .net, but one could argue that its not taking over the world as the Designers wanted. Same with Adobe and Flex. I see no solid evidence that one true tool has taken over anything.

I have seen cracks in the Windows as the one true religion theology, mostly by OS-X, some by Linux, I'll take what I can get.

I prefer pie.

arulk pillai
Author
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Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3216
Business users are saying Java becomes harder and harder to use, it would take twice of the time as .Net to build something that
make senses.



This may be tru for small projects, but not for medium to large scale projects. If you have the right people to do the job, once you have the typical vertical slice built with best practices, design conceots, patterns, frameworks and tools, the subsequent slices should be much easier to build. You need to have the right people to build the first 2-3 vertical slices.


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Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
arulk pillai wrote:
Business users are saying Java becomes harder and harder to use, it would take twice of the time as .Net to build something that
make senses.


... vertical slices.


What is a vertical clice?
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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  65

Vertical slice:
Gabriel Claramunt
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Joined: May 26, 2007
Posts: 375
Best vertical slice of "layered architecture" I saw in a while.... yummy!!


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arulk pillai
Author
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Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3216
Bear, that is really interesting .

Vertical slice is where you take a typical usecase and build all the required tiers and layers. Vertical Slice
Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
arulk pillai wrote:

Vertical slice is where you take a typical usecase and build all the required tiers and layers. Vertical Slice


We just call it building a use case from end to end.
Paul Yule
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Joined: May 12, 2008
Posts: 229
Pie is evil.

Cheesecake is good.
Tejas Jain
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Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
IT looks like we can not delete double posting anymore.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 60071
    
  65

Cheesecake is just a cheesy custard pie.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18135
    
  39

Bear Bibeault wrote:Cheesecake is just a cheesy custard pie.



I'll admit, I used to love cheesecake -- until I learned how to make it. Basically, it is mostly cream cheese, with lots of sugar, and some eggs and milk. Now, everytime I have cheesecake, I envision eating a bar of cream cheese. It doesn't seem as appetising once you know what you are eating.

Henry

Tejas Jain
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2008
Posts: 119
Pat Farrell wrote:

Same timing for me. I have never heard EJB called beautiful before. How is this statements of claims germain to .net/flex/php/ruby taking over the world?



It was called beautiful by its inventors. The word "beautiful" is often used in art and architecture, and EJB is an artwork and architecture.
The Picasso's art works are beautiful and abstract. Sometime beautiful things are not useful.
 
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