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Is Java Pure OO???

fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11497
    
  16

what the heck, it's early on a friday. Paul like's meaningless topics here, so here goes.

we FREQUENTLY see this topic in the JiG - Beginners forum. There is some discussion, a bartender/sherrif says "it's been discussed, search around", and a comment about how since the phrase "PURE OO" is not clearly defined, we can't really discuss it - in other words, the question is meaningless.

So, as an experiment, I thought I'd post the quesion here, just to see what happens.

I'm betting this thread dies a quiet and lonely death, but i truly believe it fits the category of "meaningless".


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

It's a state of mind. If the developer is pure, then so too shall be the code.


"We're kind of on the level of crossword puzzle writers... And no one ever goes to them and gives them an award." ~Joe Strummer
sscce.org
Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1390
The "OO" reminds me of the "OO" in the Hooters signs.
That makes sense, because the restaurants are
Sex-Object Oriented.
[ December 29, 2006: Message edited by: Frank Silbermann ]
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

I'm not sure about 'Pure oo', but it is a bit naughty and can certainly qualify for 'oo-eer' or even a wolf-whistle and a gutteral snort. I'm not sure where the 'pure' theory comes from, as shown below:

Whats the difference between a good programming language and a great one?
A good language goes out, goes home then goes to bed. A great one goes out, goes to bed then goes home.

Java is a bit free and easy, it is not pure.
Edwin Dalorzo
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Joined: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 961
This is a very interesting answer taken from Wikipedia


OO languages can be grouped into several broad classes, determined by the extent to which they support all features and functionality of object-orientation and objects: classes, methods, polymorphism, inheritance, and reusability.

* Languages called "pure" OO languages, because everything in them is treated consistently as an object, from primitives such as characters and punctuation, all the way up to whole classes, prototypes, blocks, modules, etc. They were designed specifically to facilitate, even enforce, OO methods. Examples: Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby.
* Languages designed mainly for OO programming, but with some procedural elements. Examples: Java, Python.
* Languages that are historically procedural languages, but have been extended with some OO features. Examples: C++, Fortran 2003, Perl.
* Languages with most of the features of objects (classes, methods, inheritance, reusability), but in a distinctly original, even elegant, form. Examples: Oberon (Oberon-1 or Oberon-2).
* Languages with abstract data type support, but not all features of object-orientation, sometimes called object-based languages. Examples: Modula-2 (with excellent encapsulation and information hiding), Pliant.
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
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Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
That's a weird list: for one thing, it makes no mention of C# which is, AFIK, just as OO as java, if not moreso.

I'll now commence to duck flames


Java Regular Expressions
Jesus Angeles
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Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2061
Java is not pure oo.

It is an outrageous that some movements, who are against people or organizations who treat others as 'objects', recently added Java on their 'to-watch' list.

Happy New Year to all. Contact me if you want to join the organization I am building, to preach that java is not that bad.
[ January 02, 2007: Message edited by: Jesus Angeles ]
Stan James
(instanceof Sidekick)
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 29, 2003
Posts: 8791
I liked the Hybrid idea. I was a big Turbo Pascal fan and when Borland added just a few keywords to make it hybrid OO I was delighted. Now I wish Java was more like Smalltalk. Sigh.


A good question is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of the idea. John Ciardi
Edwin Dalorzo
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Joined: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 961

That's a weird list: for one thing, it makes no mention of C# which is, AFIK, just as OO as java, if not moreso.


Those were just examples, the list never pretended to be precise or strict. Here there is a more detailed list that includes C#.

Programming Language Comparison
Ilja Preuss
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 14112
Originally posted by Max Habibi:
That's a weird list: for one thing, it makes no mention of C# which is, AFIK, just as OO as java, if not moreso.


Isn't C# more or less a clone of Java? Would be quite redundant to mention it then...


The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
Marc Peabody
pie sneak
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Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Posts: 4727

Originally posted by Edwin Dalorzo (who quoted Wiki):
Languages called "pure" OO languages, because everything in them is treated consistently as an object, from primitives such as characters and punctuation, all the way up to whole classes, prototypes, blocks, modules, etc. They were designed specifically to facilitate, even enforce, OO methods. Examples: Smalltalk, Eiffel, Ruby.


Yeah, Ruby treats all primitives as objects. Even nil (null) is an object. Oh, and it lets you program procedurally yet all the loose code and functions become part of a root object. There's no escaping objects in Ruby, though it is possible to write a simple program in Java that doesn't instantiate objects.

I think the Wiki selection here shows that Java is not a "pure" OO language, but if I ever heard someone say they chose to use a different language solely on the basis that it is more "pure" than Java... I think I would have to slap them.


A good workman is known by his tools.
Henry Wong
author
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Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 19060
    
  40

For a topic in the meaningless drivel forum, this discussion does seem to be more "serious" than "drivel"...

I think the Wiki selection here shows that Java is not a "pure" OO language, but if I ever heard someone say they chose to use a different language solely on the basis that it is more "pure" than Java... I think I would have to slap them.


Agreed. While choosing a language based on OO purity may be acceptable in academia or personal projects, it is a slappable offense elsewhere.

More acceptable "language based" reasons probably include... Cost savings due to learning curve. Available features, libaries, or services, with language, tools, or framework. Available pool of developers due to language popularity. etc.

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24187
    
  34

Oooooooooooh, baby, baby...


[Jess in Action][AskingGoodQuestions]
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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Posts: 18671
[Henry]: For a topic in the meaningless drivel forum, this discussion does seem to be more "serious" than "drivel"...

Well, as fred noted in the first post, we've seen it many times in the serious forums, and it usually seems pretty silly there. Posting it here was an experiment by fred. A recent "serious" incarnation (almost certainly, the one that inspired fred's post here) may be found here for those who wish to take it seriously.


"I'm not back." - Bill Harding, Twister
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
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Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
[EFH]: Oooooooooooh, baby, baby...



We are talking Led Zeppelin here, rather than Smokey Robinson, Linda Ronstadt or Britney Spears or any of the countless others who have had lyrics or titles like this, right?
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61761
    
  67

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
... for those who wish to take it seriously.


Me, I want a hula hoop.
[ December 30, 2006: Message edited by: Bear Bibeault ]

[Asking smart questions] [Bear's FrontMan] [About Bear] [Books by Bear]
marc weber
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Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

But if no one has ever seen an object...
Bert Bates
author
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Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8883
    
    5
it's all gone downhill since the "struct"


Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
(If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room.)
Nicholas Jordan
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Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
Originally posted by Max Habibi:
That's a weird list: for one thing, it makes no mention of C# which is, AFIK, just as OO as java, if not moreso.

I'll now commence to duck flames


You'll have to explain duck flames to Ilja Preuss, he had just corrected me out of the channel for something that made perfect sense to me, but would make a duck in flames look an easy to understand object compared to keeping the javaranch community thriving in the face of challenges such as this.

Which is why I proposed this discussion to fred rosenberger in the first place.

I noticed over the last few days, the return from ultimatebb.cgi is now in MCBS or someting, before it would open in my editor and I could bang around 80,000 keystrokes without a problem.

I know this problem well and expect with the implementation of Unicode or MBCS or whatever was implemented, the challenge of maintaining a thriving community will parallel the post of fred rosenberger:
it's early on a Friday
we FREQUENTLY see this topic in the JiG - Beginners forum. There is some discussion, a bartender/sherrif says "it's been discussed, search around", and a comment about how since the phrase "PURE OO" is not clearly defined, we can't really discuss it - in other words, the question is meaningless.
Well I was speaking to Bocephus Aberdeen McKinzie moments ago, he belongs to a religion called Moose Slim, who's headquarters in Sackcrete , Alabama belives Friday is Kin-Youbi: "Gold Day" or "money day": If the Sackcrete is pure, so shall be the Objects constructed and the draft for payment by the owner will be accepted at the Saloon for payment of last months liquor bills.

If this thread dies a quiet and lonely death, then it would fit in the category of "meaningless".

I see from the roster of posters and their chosen wording that this topic is far from meaningless. Frank Silbermann's remarks have special meaning for me, in that the commercial smile only seen at the retailer of entertainment cited is a metaphor for anything which is complete in it's implementation and pure in it's avoidance of outcry. A common example is idiomatics which would be misinterpreted by other Nationalities as negativity, rather than the rich conveyance of information that is intrinsic in the idiomatics of most cultures.

We do not have the luxury here of Oooooooooooh, baby, baby...

Generally, people who make gross generalizations are wrong - as is the generalization under discussion here. What I see as the failure, is the placing on new coders gross generalizations - such as in beginner - which may have great utility on 80,000 lines of source, such as Character.java - but when used on beginners to explain what is going on puts them in the position of wrestling with project-manager burdens which at the lowest level should stop at the New Team Lead. level.

That cleanly sums up my concerns in the issue, perhaps if we can explain Fog Hat to MBCS cultures, with deep-branch prediction of semantic analysis .... then we might be able to let this thread die a quiet and lonely death.

I doubt it.

[ December 30, 2006: Message edited by: Nicholas Jordan ]
[ April 29, 2007: Message edited by: Nicholas Jordan ]

"The differential equations that describe dynamic interactions of power generators are similar to that of the gravitational interplay among celestial bodies, which is chaotic in nature."
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61761
    
  67

I also want a Japanese banana.
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
I'm Ronin for a Japanese Banana
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 19060
    
  40

An inedible banana?? That's almost sacreligious !!!

Personally, I love the plantains variety over the sweet. There is nothing better than a big plate of Tostones.

[HomerSimpson]
Mmmmmmmm.... Tooossstoonnneeesss .... *drool* ....
[/HomerSimpson]

Henry
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24187
    
  34

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:

We are talking Led Zeppelin here, rather than Smokey Robinson, Linda Ronstadt or Britney Spears or any of the countless others who have had lyrics or titles like this, right?


Actually, I was thinking Smokey. Thanks for asking!
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[EFH]: Oooooooooooh, baby, baby...

We are talking Led Zeppelin here, rather than Smokey Robinson, Linda Ronstadt or Britney Spears or any of the countless others who have had lyrics or titles like this, right?

No, no, it's Chrissie Hynde on "Tattooed Love Boys" from the first Pretenders album, released on vinyl in 1980. Those were formative years: Sixteen years old, playing with Basic on graph paper ("910 GOTO, GOTO, GOTO"). Named my first guitar "Chrissie." Back then, I kept my albums in pristine condition. Now, I scratch the **** out of them on a pair of 1200's. Learned to beat juggle on a pair of Miles Davis Doo-Bop albums, spending hours repeating the same 2 measures, left turntable, then right, then left... Now, that's an infinite loop. One of the arms wasn't balanced correctly (Technics' manuals still seem to be written for "audiophiles," and I didn't know any better), so one of those records is far more trashed than the other. Crackles like an old gramophone -- which at one time was regarded as undesirable surface noise, but now... Uh, what was the original question?
[ December 30, 2006: Message edited by: marc weber ]
Ben Souther
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Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

Originally posted by marc weber:
... Uh, what was the original question?


I think it had to do with who wrote "Oooooooooooh, baby, baby..."


Java API J2EE API Servlet Spec JSP Spec How to ask a question... Simple Servlet Examples jsonf
Nicholas Jordan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
Originally posted by Henry Wong:
Agreed. While choosing a language based on OO purity may be acceptable in academia or personal projects, it is a slappable offense elsewhere.

Henry


Why ?

Note - I understand:

And it is "Available pool of developers due to language popularity. etc." that I take as a " direct challenge " - not because I take it as challenge in a combative sense, but because I can spot this out of all the Rock & Roller's attempts to keep the Thread alive by bloating it with Meaningless Drivel < !-- ... to the point of code-bloat, no less !-->

Mr. Stroustrup has noted some inconsistencies in popular linguistics v. effective linguistics. I will boldly go where no clown has gone and introduce a new programming model:Let us take for visualization a scanner {not:Scanner} at one checkout lane at Generic Large Retailer. We will say for the moment while I am building a foundation for the model that the device has twelve mirrors, each of which must be aligned correctly to achieve a reaonable balance between let's say a +/- dichotomy with six mirrors on each side. Six of the mirrors are to place the laser onto the target tag, six are to feed the reflected signal onto some sort of reader/receptor somewhere under glass that will conceptually form a barrier where we can concern ourselves with the programming of one or more Threads that will not block waiting for System.in.

Given the Sidewinder programming paradigm , we have the rattle-tail - which I will parody as The Thirteenth Mirror.

Would You Rather Be A Colonel (1918) 8697S.mid , or a 16-bit, Single Threaded Entry Point ? We're pulling into Cold  Clown Harbor. I have my Fog Hat on. We, as the New Team Lead want to open the throttles on Twin 3208's . We will call these Twin 3208's the right way and the wrong way. While this metaphor pales in comparison to V-18 Allison Marine Diesel with pistons the size of wastebaskets, the metaphor is chosen for throttle-responsiveness in the delivery of torque.

Starting with Fifteen Ways to Stack a Cat, two of those ways have just been dispensed with with the Twin 3208's metaphor, leaving thirteen - twelve of which are accounted for by the twelve mirrors in the scanner. Each of which is properly the domain of established engineering, and I will assume those have been done correctly for the moment.

I take the zero'th mirror to be the Thirteen'th mirror, rattle on the tail of the sidewinder, and define it thus:

True Evil comes from a face you know and a voice you trust.

<alert> Are you ready folks ? .... Are you Really Really Ready ? Many of the workers in this Thread {isn't linguistics fun ?   :roll: } are Masters of wordplay. Caveat emptor, except as noted in the Caveat Correction Manual. </alert>

It's the one you are looking at when you stand in front of the bathroom mirror.

It's the honest person who is trying to fix their computer !

Why would you choose an Application Programming Interface on the basis of popularity ?

I bet the Office Monkeys would like your bannana !

Yellow is my color.

This is a zero-sum game.

I have no stomach for games, but if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay !

For me, the Original Question is The Ventures vinyl, circa early '60s.

Did you know that the manufacturer of the Kustom Amps went on to make Klystrons for the Kansas Highway Patrol ?

Do you know what a Jayhawk is ?

Did you ever stop to think exactly What " Rock and Roll " actually means ?

Our challenge, computer security, bears remarkable resemblence to the comedy classic "Who's On First ?"


[ January 07, 2007: Message edited by: Nicholas Jordan ]
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by Nicholas Jordan:
... Do you know what a Jayhawk is ?...

I'm in Minneapolis, and was a musician in the 80's, so I know one definition.
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by Ben Souther:
...I think it had to do with who wrote "Oooooooooooh, baby, baby..."

Oh, yes. Thank you.

Apparently, what I'm trying to say is that music pressed on vinyl can be considered an object -- a physical thing that can be manipulated on a turntable to create new music, � la musique concr�te...
Traditionally, classical or serious music begins as an abstraction, as musical notation on paper or other medium, which is then produced into audible music. Musique concr�te strives to begin with the "concrete" sounds, experiment with them, and abstract them into musical compositions.

Ref: Wikipedia - Musique concr�te

So I'm anticipating a JVM release on high-quality 12" vinyl.
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 30, 2000
Posts: 18671
[EFH]: Actually, I was thinking Smokey. Thanks for asking!

To be fair, Smokey Robinson's song has much more of a pure OO. Robert Plant tends to sound more like OH-AH-HAAH or other pyrotechnics. So your answer is better. I guess.

[marc]: No, no, it's Chrissie Hynde on "Tattooed Love Boys" from the first Pretenders album, released on vinyl in 1980.

What is this "vinyl" of which you speak, Ancient One?

OK, I remember vinyl, and did in fact own several record over the years. Unfortunately my sisters has absolutely no ability to avoid scratching up anything they came in contact with, and so for my purposes the format is now primarily associated with horribly mutilated sounds. I can see wher eit might have had appeal for others, but not in my family, sadly.

I couldn't find a clip of "ooo baby baby" from this song, so I'll have to take your word for it that it's a goodie. But the Pretenders were always pretty cool, so that's not too hard to imagine.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 19060
    
  40

Based on the track that this topic is going, then Britney Spears is an Object Oriented Programmer...

I missed my "vinyls" -- left most of them many many years ago in the basement near the boiler...

Henry
Barry Gaunt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 03, 2002
Posts: 7729
Sing along folks:
CHORUS
Cause you're the object of my desire
Baby ignite my fire
Object of my desire
Hey can you really turn me on

You're the object of my desire
Won't you ignite my fire
Object of my desire
Hey can you really turn me on


Innerlexical challenging init?


Ask a Meaningful Question and HowToAskQuestionsOnJavaRanch
Getting someone to think and try something out is much more useful than just telling them the answer.
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24187
    
  34

Originally posted by Henry Wong:
Britney Spears is an Object Oriented Programmer...


<DRAFT>

Q: How can you tell Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan aren't software architects?
A: Because they both recently exposed their private interfaces.

Q: And similarly, how can you tell Ron Jeremy ain't?
A: Due to the fact that his long member is public.

</DRAFT>

I've applied for dirtyoopsjokes.sourceforge.org but they haven't approved it yet...
Nicholas Jordan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
Originally posted by fred rosenberger:
what the heck, it's early on a friday. Paul like's meaningless topics here, so here goes.

we FREQUENTLY see this topic in the JiG - Beginners forum. There is some discussion, a bartender/sherrif says "it's been discussed, search around", and a comment about how since the phrase "PURE OO" is not clearly defined, we can't really discuss it - in other words, the question is meaningless.

So, as an experiment, I thought I'd post the quesion here, just to see what happens.

I'm betting this thread dies a quiet and lonely death, but i truly believe it fits the category of "meaningless".


Processing...
The post has been deleted.

That's the return from the script, I deleted the original post by me after sleeping on the censure - beginner has no place being led into this.

As you say, it was an experiment ... given that it was started late on Friday, and it is a Holiday weekend, this occured largely outside of conventional business hours. I notice the traffic is much greater during regular business hours.

For the record, I wish to note that I got on the script for the worlds oldest rfid concern. Their about page states: "Why do we elaborate so?" and goes on to explain why. Seeing this, I came in like a P-51 with all wing-barrels locked full on.

The reply I got back is telling.

" Brother do I like your style. I own this place and I am pulling your email out of the forest of emails to handle personally."

His cell phone is now on the speed-dialer of my cell phone.

I can see this is not going to work the issue we originally targeted, if the posters wish to continue - let them do so of their own choice and effort.

The question does not classifiy, except as reliability engineering.

I know exactly which sentence blew it up, I deal with this sort of ... mindgames is in fact the correct word ... routinely, as my regular duty in my regular day job.

That sentence is hyper-linked to a discussion with a world class cryptographer by the name of Cesar Rabek - in which he states that he would probably cite me, his email address works off the A.C.M. server.

 
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subject: Is Java Pure OO???