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Don't need no stinkin traffic lights.

Ben Souther
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Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

And I thought Boston drivers were good.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzujn_only-in-india


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Sonny Gill
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

That was awesome, Ben.

I always have so much fun telling people what driving in India is like.

I call it "democracy in driving". If you are trying to turn or cross a road, you wait until there is enough people wanting to do the same thing, and then you just go.


The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
Dave Lenton
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Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
Originally posted by Sonny Gill:
I call it "democracy in driving". If you are trying to turn or cross a road, you wait until there is enough people wanting to do the same thing, and then you just go.
And how many people get killed every year on the roads? It sounds horribly dangerous.

Are there any traffic police?


There will be glitches in my transition from being a saloon bar sage to a world statesman. - Tony Banks
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Yes,India is among worst or possibly worst country when it comes to walking on roads.Atleast twice a week,you get a dose of "Two killed,three injured,driver absconding' news in your area.Traffic laws exist but they are archaic and traffic police do the work which they are not supposed to.
If you are driving smoothly as per rule,make sure you are get caught by cop asking for some emission ceritificate etc.If its there one more till you decide,it better to listen to him than aruging during rush hour.


Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

Originally posted by Sonny Gill:

I call it "democracy in driving".

Looks more like anarchy than democracy to me.

In any case it is fun to watch.
Sonny Gill
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
And how many people get killed every year on the roads? It sounds horribly dangerous.

Are there any traffic police?


Yeah, it looks very dangerous, and many people do get killed on the road.
But the number of accidents is probably not as high as you would expect from looking at that clip.

You have a different way of driving there. You are prepared to stop at a moment's notice. In fact, most of the time, you have to wait until the last minute before you stop, otherwise you will never get anywhere.
It is a common sight to see vehicles missing each other by mere centimeters, quite fascinating to watch really.

I don't have any figures but I would guess that most of the fatal accidents happen because of over speeding, from driving while tired (or sleepy, or drunk) and because of bad lighting at night.

The accidents that happen because of absence of traffic rules tend to cause more material damage then life loss, again because, everybody is ready for having to stop any minute.

My worst fear of driving in India is driving at night. The lighting varies a lot, and most of the people drive with their lights on high beam which practically leaves you blinded most of the time, especially if you are in a small car or on a motor bike.
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8903

My worst fear of driving in India is driving at night.


Yes it is. Driving two wheeler is really difficult as most of car drivers (teen agers, software professionals and BPO mainly) are drunk.


Groovy
Arun Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 129

Driving in India may be hard and many dosent follow the traffic rule but that is not the case everywhere in India there are places where you have to strictly obey the rules watch the signal etc

but yes the roades are not as wide as the european roads and hence for a person from outside it may seem to be a problem

let me ask a question is the rate of road accidents druken driving etc so little in other countries
Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

Most of the cars in that video look like low horsepower vehicles.
It looks crazy but nobody is really moving that fast.

In the US, we have a lot of huge SUVs with 8 cylinder engines.
Add to the at the number of people talking on cell phones while driving these pigs and it's clear that such a situation would never work here.
There would be an accident every 15 minutes in an intersection like that.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11150
    
  16

I haven't watched this video yet, but it sounds much like what I saw everywhere in China. My wife and I joked that they didn't have traffic laws, just "Guidelines".


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
Ben Souther
Sheriff

Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 13410

From the looks of that video, there are no stinking guidelines either.
Sonny Gill
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 02, 2002
Posts: 1211

Originally posted by Ben Souther:
From the looks of that video, there are no stinking guidelines either.


Yes there are.

Whether or not you have the right of way is determined based on the size of your vehicle, the speed at which you are traveling, the number of people going in the same direction as you, and whether or not you are clearly visible to the oncoming traffic.

The exact formula cannot be expressed mathematically. It is an intuitive process genetically passed on from generation to generation.

One more very important factor is how loud and in what way you blow your car horn, by which you can convey to the rest of the traffic whether or not you intend to follow the above guidelines.
(In fact you will find written at the back of many lorries - Horn Please)

Rohit Nath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 387
If you are the one following all the rules you will be looked down upon as a Idiot! Soon you will start feeling like a criminal!
At times you start thinking that are you doing something wrong and breaking the road rules (set up by the citizens for their perceived convinience) by following the traffic rules!
Also it is not important how safe YOU are driving it is more important who is driving in front and behind you!!!

Also College students riding wildly make things worse! I was in a bad situation some time back due to one such moron!
Bad Roads just add to the situation!

Driving responsibly is the last priority here!

If you can drive here you can drive literally anywhere!!
[ January 23, 2007: Message edited by: Rohit Nath ]

R.N
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Originally posted by Rohit Nath:

If you can drive here you can drive literally anywhere!!



that is very true.... specially about bangalore.... people here drive like crazy.... bikers vroooming past you on footpaths terrorising all the pedesterians is a very common sight here....
[ January 23, 2007: Message edited by: Pushkar Choudhary ]
Rohit Nath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 387
Originally posted by Dave Lenton:

Are there any traffic police?


Don't even get me started on the traffic police! Really pissed off!

I feel really ashamed and sad thay "They" are there for business. I do not want to generalise here but most are the same!
Although they "also" play some role in directing the traffic at times.Most of the times you will find them setting a trap to catch hold of some commuters and *fine*them up!
They will ask for n number of documents untill they finally somehow catch hold of you!

The fine with the asterisk above has a special meaning attached to it. It is not the fine that goes to the government! Period. Enough said. Need not say the rest!

I feel really ashamed to be a part of such a reality where the ones supposed to guard the law "play" with it!
A sad state of affairs indeed!
[ January 23, 2007: Message edited by: Rohit Nath ]
Rohit Nath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 387
Originally posted by Ben Souther:

In the US, we have a lot of huge SUVs with 8 cylinder engines.


Those are the last things we want here Ben!
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Originally posted by Rohit Nath:

I feel really ashamed to be a part of such a reality where the ones supposed to guard the law "play" with it!
A sad state of affairs indeed!



yeah.... that, unfortunately, is the reality here in India in most of the cities...
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
Why doesn't someone do anything about it? Here if traffic police were found to be taking bribes, the press would be all over it and people would get fired.
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Its a big chain.The people have power to fire others need to be honest atelast!!Here its not the case.If you raise your voice,they can even file false case against you in a court where jury gets his regular commision.
30% of juries in a country take bribes(This statement was given by one Supreme Court jury).
Recently one survey was conducted for poor children/people who live on roads.When asked whom they feared most, they answerd "Police"
[ January 23, 2007: Message edited by: Arjunkumar Shastry ]
Rohit Nath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 387
Originally posted by Dave Lenton:
Why doesn't someone do anything about it? Here if traffic police were found to be taking bribes, the press would be all over it and people would get fired.


As we say it the entire "System" is corrupt!
They will even file a false case against you! for interfering in the law!
I do not want to present a grim face as it hurts me too... but this is the reality. Nor do I want to spread bad will!
Not all the time these thing happen but they happen quite often.
Rohitt Vermaa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2006
Posts: 232
Yes this is the unfortunate state of or country. I think the media is doing a good job by exposing lot of politicians. But it is very unfortunate that the people are more interested in Abhishek-Aish marriage and Shilpa Shetty than the sting operations by the news channels. To keep up their TRP rating the news channel also gives more importance to such useless issues.


SCJP ,SCWCD
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Lets not blame only the people or the media. In the last few days, whenever i switched on my television and tuned to any of the news channels, all i saw was the Shilpa Shetty episode and the "so called" racism in the show and all the things related to that. Similarly, since last few days, everyday the newspapers are carrying some news on Aishwarya-Abhishek.

So, the media doesn't focus much on social issues. At the same time, even when they do, they're not able to make many changes due to many reasons. Like, the sting operations which you mentioned are very few and on 1-2 channels only. And as per my knowledge, even after the sting operation, nothing much happens to the person who was caught on tape. A few days back, a minister (I forgot his name) in the local Karnataka government here was caught on tape taking bribes. But, what happened to him after that? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Since the whole "System" is corrupt, even issues like this which are raised by the media fail to make any changes due to the big (and corrupt) political intervention in everything including the Law.
Aj Mathia
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 11, 2003
Posts: 478
Its not about traffic rules or the cops or the media or corruption or the SUVs
Its all about how many people occupy a sq feet of land.
The more the harder it is to maintain.
If you check the traffic mishaps per block of area per humans/animals moving, the results will be way off what you think


You think you know me .... You will never know me ... You know only what I let you know ... You are just a puppet ... --CMG
Sandip Sankeshwar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 210
Originally posted by Arjunkumar Shastry:
Its a big chain.

I agree. I have experienced this.
Arun Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 129

Why doesn't someone do anything about it?
Dave Lenton



We always do -- talk about it ,complain about the system and once in the road drive like anything then again blame the system

and then again talk about it
Anu Pillai
Greenhorn

Joined: Oct 09, 2006
Posts: 28
I also agree with all the people saying that the system is corrupt. Yes it is corrupt, but cant we do something about it rather than putting the blame on others.

little drops of water make the mighty ocean...

If we (our generation) take action, then we can make a difference rather than blaming the system. We can make a resolution that we will not drive beyond the speed limit, that we will not drink and drive. We can pass on this good information to our siblings.If you really look into all the accident cases, you can see that most of them are caused by youngsters. We can stop our friends, our relatives etc from doing wrong things.
Rambo Prasad
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 23, 2006
Posts: 628
Check this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyxhRg9ZxY0


Helping hands are much better than the praying lips
Rohit Nath
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 387
Originally posted by Arun Kumar:
Why doesn't someone do anything about it?
Dave Lenton



We always do -- talk about it ,complain about the system and once in the road drive like anything then again blame the system

and then again talk about it


I know people who dont event care to talk about it!
And they take great pride in driving irresponsibly!
So lets not dilute the matter here!
There are the reponsible ones and the irresponsible ones there is no grey area here. Either you are responsible or otherwise! That is decided by what one practices on the road not just talks! Period.
Rambo Prasad
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 23, 2006
Posts: 628
Corruption pervades across the entire administrative society...There is a big nexus between politicians ,criminals and police...Even if you want to expose someone you should do it very carefully else your story could turn sad like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTvUR-tmGPA
Arun Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 129

Corruption is there nobody says that the System is clean

But every country had a time when it strugled to supress corruption we are developing of course we have some drawbacks

but about the corruption in the system its upto you to see the glass half full or half empty

I have great regard for US the progress that country made,and the patriotism shown by its citizens it is one of the countries that has the least corrupt system but just a google search provided me with this result

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States#1990_-_1999

Similary with the persent economic growth,educational progress and the proactiveness of the youth(That I see in my friends and around me) we are sure that we will reach a better position

and again its upto you to see whether the glass is half full of half empty
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
Originally posted by Arun Kumar:
Similary with the persent economic growth,educational progress and the proactiveness of the youth(That I see in my friends and around me) we are sure that we will reach a better position
I hope so. The world will be a better place with a fair and successful India in it (even if it will provide some if us with some interesting challenges in the short term).

I'm pretty sure that India's economic growth will continue, but that may not lead to a decline in corruption. Corruption is something which needs to be stamped out from above, and until the people in power stop being corrupt, corruption will be everywhere. Unfortunately power seems to attract corruption, so people in corrupt countries need to find a way of persuading their leaders to put aside their selfish instincts and become fairer. The best way to do that is at the ballot box, but it won't be easy. Without a population which wants the top to change, and without a free media which is willing to expose corruption, it may not happen.
Sayak Banerjee
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Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 292
All powers tend to corrupt but absolute powers corrupt absolutely.
-- Lord Acton


Turn on, tune in, drop out.
Amit Batra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 361
All powers tend to corrupt but absolute powers corrupt absolutely.


not necessarily true. China has done better than us.
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
Originally posted by Amitabha Batranab:
not necessarily true. China has done better than us.
China does have a large amount of corruption though throughout their economy. This will have a negative effect, and I'd say that their development has been despite the corruption rather then being from a lack of it.

It'd be interesting to think what a less corrupt China would be like, but that's probably outside of the scope of Meaningless Drivel.
Amit Batra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 361
China does have a large amount of corruption though throughout their economy. This will have a negative effect, and I'd say that their development has been despite the corruption rather then being from a lack of it.

It'd be interesting to think what a less corrupt China would be like, but that's probably outside of the scope of Meaningless Drivel.


Yes,Every country in this world has a fair bit of corruption, but I can imagine corruption in China must not be the main dominant theme when it comes to a treatise of the problems of that country. I can imagine the issues that plague that country are more to do with how to transition to a market economy while still maintaining their socialist roots among others.Other issues like human rights things inherent with that type of a system must also find a place. Ofcourse I havent lived there or studied it so I cant be sure. When it comes to India corruption provides the basic recurring underlying theme and the term plays out over and over in any discussion, article, debate or study about any aspect about its present and future. The media does highlight it but because its pretty much a way of life and more or less institutionalized it fails to elicit the kind response nor does it do much in the way of mass mobilization of opinion that is visible and of consequence in developed countries. Last I read, corruption attracts the death penalty in China, in India it invites a slap on the wrist and a penatly of having to share the spoils with your seniors. Ofcourse im being a little cynical.
I think the real crux of this issue is the fact that people are all too ready to give into a knee jerk reaction whenever they see something 'amiss' and blame the politics and politicians of a country. How many of us complain about things like pollution etc and then go out and buy the biggest gas guzzling suv out there, about a depleting ozone layer but then not abstain from turning down our A/c's one bit. About a depleting forest cover and then going out and buying things thats the very cause of it. We all want a model state but arent willing to bear the responsibillity of working for it. I say this is true for pretty much every country in the world and every people of the world.
I dont necesarrily think that corruption can always be blamed on politicians of a country. These politicians didnt descend from heaven. they werent sent by God above. They are a pick out of people like you and me. I happen to think that a politicas of a country is a good reflection of a society. The problems that plague the world and India in particular are not corruption that has to do with money, but rather mental corruption. The perversion of ideas and principles. No country is exempt from this. Just turn on MTV and youll see what I mean. That mediums such as the internet has now come to be dominated majorly with pronography is one such corruption of an idea. The discussion of this thread was mainly corruption in India and that can only go away when people collectively start taking a stand, and decide its time to change things. either we can be cynics and keep eyeing politicians, police with suspicion and their nexus or we can make our voices heard and opt for some kind of a dictatorship rule as the present system clearly hasent worked for us. Until that happens Im afraid very little will change. We do make up the 'system' after all.
Rohitt Vermaa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 12, 2006
Posts: 232
Originally posted by Rambo Prasad:
Check this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyxhRg9ZxY0


This is a fake video. The police man wearing plain white shirt.
Arun Kumar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 129


This is a fake video. The police man wearing plain white shirt.


This is also one of the greatest problems in India there is a bunch of people who want to show case India as some horrible place (unfortunately they are mostly Indians) any one who watched that video can see that the police man dosent have any badges not even a nameplate and the whole thing is just made up

There is corruption in India ,(It is there around the world) we should see the problem of corruption with a realistic view

but as I said earlier there are some people who always see the glass half empty
Dave Lenton
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1241
I agree that corruption is probably not the main challenge that China faces, but there is no doubt that it is still a big problem there.

I stumbled across an interesting page on Wikipedia which describes an attempt to measure corruption around the world. Obviously this is pretty tricky to do, but the results are interesting. There is a fairly clear correlation between being a rich country and having less corruption. Which way does that relationship go though? Are some countries rich because they are less corrupt, or less corrupt because there is less motivation to be corrupt in a rich country? Probably a bit of both.
[ January 29, 2007: Message edited by: Dave Lenton ]
Arjunkumar Shastry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 986
Possibly yes.
It has to do with resources/people ratio too.In India,the poorer states are found to be more corrupt than relatively richer states.More population density also contributes to more corruption.Other factors are:
1)Uneven industrial growth of regions.
2)Social culture."ready to anything for money." contributes alot to corruption.
Amit Batra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 361
I agree that corruption is probably not the main challenge that China faces, but there is no doubt that it is still a big problem there.

I stumbled across an interesting page on Wikipedia which describes an attempt to measure corruption around the world. Obviously this is pretty tricky to do, but the results are interesting. There is a fairly clear correlation between being a rich country and having less corruption. Which way does that relationship go though? Are some countries rich because they are less corrupt, or less corrupt because there is less motivation to be corrupt in a rich country? Probably a bit of both.


"There is a fairly clear correlation between being a rich country and having less corruption." I can understand someone thinking this just because it appeals to common sense. Lets say you are correct for a second. If so, then going by the map on that page, why is U.S.A with it G.D.P $41,415, covered in light blue signifying a 'corruption' index 7-7.9. The same with japan. Botswanians with a G.D.P of $6,439 seem to think their country is less corrupt with an index of 5-5.9. Hong kong with a G.D.P of $32,750 on the other hand is covered in red. Threre are many many such instances to pick at. I am not inclined to highlight them all as the very premise of this whole argument is false. let me explain why.

That website doesnt exactly try to 'measure corruption' but rather to gauge a perception of corruption of residents of a particular country. The very premise of such a survey to me is useless to me, An american could think his country is more corrupt during a period marked when his country is embroiled in a political scandal and think it is less corrupt otherwise. How do you account for perception tainted by arousal of emotion? This is merely a survey and though useful to a few people im sure, it just cannot provide any concrete scientific foundation upon which to base conclusions and do further study. To say as you do "Are some countries rich because they are less corrupt, or less corrupt because there is less motivation to be corrupt in a rich country? Probably a bit of both." can also be successfully refuted within the confines of this (faulty)argument because if you look at the countries which have been touted as the 'least corrupt' on that very web page. Iceland, Finland, Denmark,Singapore,New Zealand,Norway,Netherlands,Australia,Singapore,Sweden, one could easily argue that its not wealth that seems to regress corruption numbers but population numbers. Ofcourse there are then issues within that too relating to population density. Singapore would then be the bad apple in that argument. One could easily come along and argue that the nations listed have less corruption because the people living there are of primarily nordic descent. Or someone could could turn this survey upside its head by saying that people of the countries who think their countries are least corrupt are optimistic by nature which is why they just dont see it. Where does it stop? Its not that Im not disagreeing with the survery nor agreeing with it so I could care less. As somoene who has studied statistics in the past, I can say there are very very few studies that one can conduct using statistical instruments that can stand the test of having everything from their methodology to their very intent questioned, thereby making it very easy to punch holes even in virtually any statistical study that was actually done with an honest view to communicate a truth. If someone actually came along with a study based on proper statistical methods.I would still view it with a pinch of salt. At best they can provide a roadmap in helping one make up his mind or provide basis for further study/analysis. at worst they can be great conversation starters betwen two people.
 
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