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Layoff contiunes in India, looks like worst is yet to come

Sandeep Awasthi
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Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Just read this Upto 100,000 layoffs by september


Sandeep
David Hawkins
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 20, 2009
Posts: 11
With any luck it will ONLY be 100,000. Compared to what the US has been going through as well as some other countries, 100,000 is not really that big of a number. But I still hate to see anyone lose their job.
arulk pillai
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Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3259
This will push the salary/rates down as well. I recently secured a contract position and the employer quoted the market condition to squeeze my rate. Luckily I had other offers and eventually we met in the middle.


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Ram kovis
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Joined: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 130
arulk pillai wrote:This will push the salary/rates down as well. I recently secured a contract position and the employer quoted the market condition to squeeze my rate.


For the same reason, i think, there is nothing in hopping frequently when market is hot. Make hay while sun shines..
jim li
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2008
Posts: 180
feel so much pressure right now..

people are working hard and still have to worry about whether being laid off . sigh.............................................
David Hawkins
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 20, 2009
Posts: 11
jim li wrote:feel so much pressure right now..

people are working hard and still have to worry about whether being laid off . sigh.............................................


The economy won't suck forever.
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Ram kovis wrote:
arulk pillai wrote:This will push the salary/rates down as well. I recently secured a contract position and the employer quoted the market condition to squeeze my rate.


For the same reason, i think, there is nothing in hopping frequently when market is hot. Make hay while sun shines..



There are two sides. One is if market is good, you can change jobs frequently and get increments in every change. But other side is when market is not good, and when company want to layoff people, company will choose you first ( let's keep aside other apsects). Because the people who are with the company longer or loyal to the company. So they will laid off much later. But I am still with you, if market is good, get most out of it. :-)
Kalyan Anand
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Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 194
Rajesh Thakare wrote: Because the people who are with the company longer or loyal to the company. So they will laid off much later. But I am still with you, if market is good, get most out of it. :-)

Good Joke ... who told you
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Santhosh Jali wrote:
Good Joke ... who told you


Was it joke? I didn't realized it. Thanks for compliment !!!


By the way what exactly you found as joke, can you elaborate?
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

Rajesh Thakare wrote:
Santhosh Jali wrote:
Good Joke ... who told you


Was it joke? I didn't realized it. Thanks for compliment !!!


By the way what exactly you found as joke, can you elaborate?


I do agree that loyalty might help you keep your job, but only because you are (might be) resourceful to the company. If for example you have been with the company for 8 years and because of the crunch they need you no more - they simply do not need you anymore. I know people that have been laid off after 8-12 years of service.

I have seen both sides of the scenario that you mention so the statement is quite generic to be taken as it is.

Oh and keep it cool gentlemen


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Kalyan Anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 194
Rajesh Thakare wrote:
Santhosh Jali wrote:
Good Joke ... who told you


Was it joke? I didn't realized it. Thanks for compliment !!!


By the way what exactly you found as joke, can you elaborate?


oh I see. You were in no joking mood Then keep such information to yourself because you aren't aware of industry... Company doesn't let you work with them to get your loyalty. At the end of the day its simply how much profit you earn to the company. You may be loyal to your company for the past 10 years or even more .. but when economic signs are not good a new joiner with less experience can easily replace you... and that is how things work
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18989
    
  40

Company doesn't let you work with them to get your loyalty. At the end of the day its simply how much profit you earn to the company. You may be loyal to your company for the past 10 years or even more .. but when economic signs are not good a new joiner with less experience can easily replace you... and that is how things work


I agree that blind loyalty to a company is silly. To expect that you will be kept, when you have been less productive than others, because you have been loyal is silly. However, I don't completely agree with this point either.

It is possible to be "loyal" to people you like. Heck, even if you don't like some of your colleagues, it is still possible to be loyal to them. Your professional network has importance. It is this network that will help you when you need to find a job -- and it isn't too much to ask, to show some (doesn't have to be much) loyality, so that this network won't feel uncomfortable (with getting burned) when they get you that job.

Henry


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Kalyan Anand
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Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 194
I agree with you Henry. Loyalty to friends and colleagues always helps. That is always the main criteria in getting a job. Rajesh was speaking about loyalty to company where he says - Because the people who are with the company longer or loyal to the company. So they will laid off much later. But I am still with you, if market is good, get most out of it. :-) .... thats kind of emotional ... if the company has to be with someone in crisis situation and feed him...just because he was loyal... then the company would no longer have competitive workforce but just a loyal workforce...

I get annoyed when the differentiation between the company vs the people is forgotten... .. I dont find one of the very good articles by Narayana Murthy, mentor infosys which conveys a very good message for people who think loyalty saves them....who work long hours and expect other to work for so long.... no breaks during office work...who get emotionally attached to company. It conveys very good meaning specially for indian workforce. the relation between you and company is just materialistic. As long as company needs you it pays you and gets the work done. As long as you like working with it you do.... so dont get build emotional relationship with company...if you are building emotional relationship with people around you... thats ok...
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Rajesh Thakare wrote:But other side is when market is not good, and when company want to layoff people, company will choose you first ( let's keep aside other apsects).


This is what I said. I said let's keep other factors aside. I have no further comments for you Santosh except read properly what I said.


Ofcourse if company want to layoff people the first other factors do come to whom they will layoff. But what I meant to say was if we keep other factors aside, loyalty can help you in bad time ( again keeping other factors aside ).

If company has no work for you or you are not good performer, your productivity is low, your behavior is not good, you do not fit the role which company want you to do ofcourse you will get laid off first. This everyone understands and we don't need to discuss.

My comment was related to changing job frequently in good time. If we change job frequently in good market, we can get hike in every job change, but in bad market, it creates negative impression that you do not stay with company longer.

But yes business mean money and the important reason to layoff someone is if company is not getting value of investment company making on that person. In this case you will laid off even in good market. This everyone understands. This is why I said if we keep other factors aside.

We have be nice policy here. If someone does not agree with any post, he/she can express disagreement in better way instead of saying Good joke .... who told you
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Santhosh Jali wrote: So they will laid off much later. But I am still with you, if market is good, get most out of it. :-) .... thats kind of emotional ... if the company has to be with someone in crisis situation and feed him...just because he was loyal... then the company would no longer have competitive workforce but just a loyal workforce...



When I said I am still with you was not related to company.

It was related to Ram kovis's comment of changing jobs in good market. I added Ram kovis's post in quotes above my post. So my post was related to his post. No way related to company that I am still with you. It was like I agree with you, when market is good make most out of it by changing jobs and getting hikes.
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
To further clarify if I have created misunderstanding....

If company have to layoff people, they will layoff any way because they want to do business. But in what circumstances company layoff people. Now I am saying following with the assumption that market is bad company is not getting work for the people so they are not generting profit from the investment they are making on few employees lets say 10 employees. Company does not see any chance of getting value of it's investment on these 10 employees for next 3 to 4 months. But company can afford to make investment on 2 employees even if they are not producing any value for 4 months. Management see that after 4 months there will some work coming in and they will generate profit from these employees but right now company can not invest on all 10 employees. Company has no option but to layoff 8. So which 8 they will choose. People who are loyal or people on which company does not have faith? Because after 4 months when work start coming in, employees who are not loyal may leave the company for better opportunity which they have been doing in their past career. Company can take chance on 2 most loyal employees if that is possible. This is why many IT service companies keep emloyees on bench even in good market because company have faith in them that when new project comes, these employees will generate more revenue than the investment made on them when they were on bench. I have seen people sitting on bench even for more than 6 months and company pays salary to them.

Now Santosh your comment was just "good joke .. who told you". I have no clue, what did I post wrong or is there some misunderstanding on what I mean to say and what is understood. If you would have written in better way that you do not agree on say "abc" because of "xyz" reason, I could have got some information on which I could have tried to clarify what I mean to say or I accept what I posted is really not correct. Just "Good joke .... who told you " does not help anyone. Everyone post their opnion we all discuss it, that is why we have these forums. And not everyone agrees with every opnions. But my suggestion is we can express disagreement in a way that this discussion on topic.
Kalyan Anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 194
I had no intention to hurt you.

Rajesh Thakare wrote:if we keep other factors aside, loyalty can help you in bad time ( again keeping other factors aside)

What all factors you want to keep aside ?
Performance, Salary, Productivity, Skill sets, Initiatives, Communication, Flexibility ... there are many factors that come into picture before one can consider your loyalty.

Rajesh Thakare wrote:If company has no work for you or you are not good performer, your productivity is low, your behavior is not good, you do not fit the role which company want you to do ofcourse you will get laid off first. This everyone understands and we don't need to discuss.

Unfortunately you exaggerate just one factor and out of proportion. Why do you think companies outsource jobs... ? the same criteria holds good in recruiting or laying off and it always dominates any decision.

Rajesh Thakare wrote:It was related to Ram kovis's comment of changing jobs in good market

I am not a subject matter expert but theory sounds good in books.

I am not against sticking to a company for long duration... but if you are working in the same company for very long... dont be under the myth that you are mostly safe...

I do not know your background. If you were working in a small company, I understand that you will be unaware of the corporate culture. The simple funda Hire and Fire. No sentiments no emotions.

If you have enough exposure to big MNCs with a large strength of employees... then I think you would not have made such assumption. If you still think sticking to a single company for a very long span i.e. what you term as loyalty to company helps secure your job... I dont have any objection... I suggest keep following layoff news and blogs..

Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Santhosh Jali wrote:I had no intention to hurt you.

No one has intentions to hurt anyone. But what I see is you are constantly trying to highlight one thing "Emotions". But I read this topic started by you in which you mentioned you got emotional when your senior was leaving your company obstruction to growth. I copied following few lines from your post
Santhosh Jali wrote:
my manager isn't good in many aspects... neither technical nor functional. The only thing I feel he is good in... is his communication... he is very soft spoken... and he always advised me how I should work to grow up in the ladder... he has been nice to me for the last 2 years... He resigned the previous month and last week was his last working day. After he resigned, I felt that there was nothing much for me in the company.. because he was so nice to me all these duration, his resignation shook me and until yesterday I was afraid what kind of boss would I get now... but now I regret having worked with him....

My opinion is instead of showing emotions to your senior, if you have controlled and no blind emotions for company or your career, then it can help.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
I get annoyed when the differentiation between the company vs the people is forgotten.

I can understand you get annoyed. But you should find proper place to show your anger, not in forums.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
Performance, Salary, Productivity, Skill sets, Initiatives, Communication, Flexibility ... there are many factors that come into picture before one can consider your loyalty.

I have clarified it. Problem is you misunderstood.

Santhosh Jali wrote:
I do not know your background. If you were working in a small company, I understand that you will be unaware of the corporate culture.

No one has interest in knowing who is working in how big company, but if you are in Indian IT service company which you think is big one, then I should not be surprised with your posts. I think you jump to conclusions about someone so fast. If you want to discuss personal like if I am working in small company or multi billion $ MNC, we can discuss it in private message because this is group discussion. Most of ranchers are not interested in who is working where, who is earning how much. In group discussion, everyone is more interested in topic of common interest not in anything which is related to one or two.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
The simple funda Hire and Fire. No sentiments no emotions.

Is it so straight and so easy??? I don't think is so simple and I don't think hire and fire rule is applicable to all the companies. Try to get information from someone who had seen 2001 recession, then you will understand why companies are keeping layoff as last option. Now, virtual bench to avoid layoff.

Santhosh Jali wrote:
If you still think sticking to a single company for a very long span i.e. what you term as loyalty to company helps secure your job... I dont have any objection...

Loyalty is not only sticking to one company for long. There are people who stick to one company because they do not have skills to stand in job market. I do not consider them loyal. But there are people who can get better offers outside but still show loyalty to company and stay with the company. In long run, it help their career. Because they believe in building career not jumping around. I think TCS has one person Mr. Ramodarai, who has set example of what loyalty is and what are benefits of staying with one company for longer time. Link I don't say everyone should do same. But something which can not be ignored.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
I suggest keep following layoff news and blogs..

Thanks for suggestion but I don't have to say if I read layoff news, blogs because at the start of this topic I posted on link. Now here I am again posting one more link which I posted above. Now, virtual bench to avoid layoff.

Group discussions on topic should be interesting to everyone, it should not be you and me making personal comments on each other in forum. For that we have private message. . Otherwise moderators have to jump in which is not good.
Sumit Bisht
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 329

Man i've lost it (what is going where)
..maybe i need a UML for this
Kalyan Anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 194
I dont know ...why some other post has been a matter of discussion here... anyway thanks for your suggestions...

I had no interest in knowing your background nor will I... if you have 1 or 2 years of experience... then the world you have seen is restricted... after reading your above post... I feel that is the case. I see incoherence in your above post... you bring up some other topic of virtual bench which is not related to discussion anyway... Forget it.. if you are happy with your company...and you think they will be with you in tough times because you were with them...then go ahead... I dont have any problem...after all its your career decision which you should decide... and with greater experience... life teaches new things which one cannot understand before going through/watching others go through....
arulk pillai
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3259
Sumit Bisht wrote:Man i've lost it (what is going where)
..maybe i need a UML for this



Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Santhosh Jali wrote:I dont know ...why some other post has been a matter of discussion here... anyway thanks for your suggestions...

It is because I found contradiction. In one post you say you are so emotional that when your senior resigned, you felt that there is nothing left in company, and in another post you say it is not good be emotional in your profession, simple funda hire and fire etc.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
I had no interest in knowing your background nor will I...

No one has interest in knowing anyone's background. This is why you should not bring such topics in discussion in first place. But I felt that you are trying to say that you are working in big company and others are working in small company. May be I am working in even bigger company. There are others who may be working in even bigger companies than others. No one talks about it here. I don't know why you started talking about personal.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
if you have 1 or 2 years of experience...

Again you brought new thing which not related to discussion.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
then the world you have seen is restricted...

I again say, don't jump to conclusion. Write something to which you can back it with something like link to some article etc.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
you bring up some other topic of virtual bench which is not related to discussion anyway... F

The link of virtual bench is 100% related to topic. I would suggest click the link, read the article, and most important is understand it.. Don't just draw conclusions before understanding. Actually I am surprised that you think the article of virtual bench is not related to layoffs. It is 100% related to layoff. Read headline properly. In fact the topics you drag in like you work in big company, I have 1 or 2 years of experience are not related to topic which is layoffs. Ok lets say I am fresher without any experience. Now you being 7 plus years of experience(that is what you said in one of the post, "70K in california" right?), what are you going to teach me. There is only one policy in corporate wolrd, "Hire and Fire"? and is applicable to all companies.

My suggestion is, show some maturity, avoid making personal remarks on anyone. And there is no harm in learning from debate. I learn from many people here; for example Mark. And I have respect for his management skills.
It is good to know big words like "corporate culture,subject matter expert,global citizenship" in this professional world. But understand them and use them at proper place. If you do not like my suggestions, ignore it.

It is more clear to me that you think Indian service company are ultimately only companies exist in IT industry. In India you will always find them in headlines in newspaper etc. So people think they are biggest. And whatever they do is applicable to all the companies. That is not true. There other MNCs operating in India which are far much bigger than these service companies. These companies have different culture than service companies. They don't do hire and fire. To give example in July 2006 serial local train bomb blasts in mumbai, one of my colleague got seriously injured. He was returning his home from the work when this incident happened. Company not only saved his life by spending big money for his treatment in big hospital but also assured him to keep his employment till he gets retired(even though he lost one hand in bomb blast).

For hire and fire,these companies have consultants. There is difference between consultants and employees. Work in these companies sometime in your career. You will find difference between service companies and these companies. Now I don't have to tell I have worked both kind of companies, this is why I say hire and fire is not applicable to all companies.

I agree few service companies hire and fire employees like it is nothing. But in good time, people hesitate to join them. They are aware of it.

Kalyan Anand
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Posts: 194
By referring to my earlier post...I see you failed to understand the difference between emotions towards an entity versus a person..be it your boss... and it takes the discussion back to square one...

thanks for gauging my maturity level.... unfortunately its hard to put the point when the differentiation between personal remark and personal question is misunderstood.. anyways.. as I said in my previous post... its your career and you have to decide whether you must believe in loyalty emotions and attachments towards a company.... towards people - yes I do.. towards company - I dont.

Work in these companies sometime in your career. You will find difference between service companies and these companies

similar to my earlier statement...which you took personally... I can take this personally.. but I wont.. because this is more of a comment than a remark. anyways.. i see that you are happy with your company but dont judge the world based on one... now that i dont want to prolong this discussion... I hope loyal people like you are taken care of by the companies... i know its too much to task for... but if you change your thoughts in the longrun... post back... good luck man
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Santhosh Jali wrote:By referring to my earlier post...I see you failed to understand the difference between emotions towards an entity versus a person..be it your boss... and it takes the discussion back to square one...

Generally we see people like company but don't like their bosses. Your case is not seen often.

Santhosh Jali wrote:thanks for gauging my maturity level....

I assumed you are matured and suggested to show maturity. I did not try to measure it.

Santhosh Jali wrote: .. i see that you are happy with your company but dont judge the world based on one...

You go out of context in almost every post. We are discussing layoff not who is happy with the company and who is not. Ok suppose I am not happy with my company. What should I do in this market. Change company? In such a market?

Santhosh Jali wrote:
now that i dont want to prolong this discussion...

I also feel you took it out of context.
Santhosh Jali wrote:
I hope loyal people like you are taken care of by the companies...

If you would have read properly what I wrote, we would not had so much debate. I have seen at many places you reacted before reading or understanding. I never said I am loyal to company. In fact I said to Ram that "I am with you, when market is good make most out of it". If you still have confusion on it, then read above, I have clarified it.
One example I have given about loyal person is to differentiate between real loyal and someone who is with the company just because he/she can not stand in job market. But I have never said I am loyal and I expect company to take care of me. These are all your assumptions. Another example about my company taking care of it's employee when unfortunate incident happened, is to clarify your assumption that I am not working in small company.
In every post if I have to make clarification to you because either you do not read properly or not understanding, then it is better to close this discussion. At least we have agreement on one point of closing this discussion !!!


Ulf Dittmer
Marshal

Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42610
    
  65
It doesn't look like this discussion is going anywhere, so I'm closing it.


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subject: Layoff contiunes in India, looks like worst is yet to come