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Max Habibi
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Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Now, I haven't switched over to a mac yet:

While I think they look cool, I'm not really sure that I want to plop down $3000+ dollars in order to purchase hipness points.

In a way, buying a Mac reminds me of people who got Taz Tattoos in the early nineties in an effort to 'cool' in. I don't mean that it wasn't clever originally: I just mean that it wasn't clever eventually.

But.

I have to admit, the the ads are cool
[ May 11, 2007: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]

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Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
Marshal Commander

Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11503
    
  95

I agree with you on the Mac Ads - I go to the Apple web site on a regular basis just to see if there are any new ads. Not a bad way to draw traffic.

$3000 seems excessive to me. I purchased a Mac-Mini which I upgraded to the max, and it was only $1275:
  • Mac mini 1.66GHz Intel Core Duo
  • Intel GMA950 with 64MB shared memory
  • Mac OS X - U.S. English
  • 2GB 667 DDR2 SDRAM -
  • SuperDrive 8x (DVD+R DL/DVD�RW/CD-RW)
  • 120GB Serial ATA drive

  • And that is now in this "mini" box that takes up almost no space on my desk, and is so quiet that I am rarely aware it is on. I just plugged my existing keyboard, mouse, and screen into it and have been using it happily every since.

    I have since discovered just how easy it is to upgrade these boxes, so if I was doing it all again I would probably look at whether I could by the cheaper box ($600?) and upgrade myself for less money. But it would have to be a significant difference: getting something that just worked out of the box is really nice.

    As for why I got this: prior to this I used to either work in Linux, or I would have a Windows system that had all the Cygwin tools so that I could get access to *nix tools. With OSX I have a robust *nix system with a slick user interface. (And most of the Linux applications can be ported easily (and most of the popular ones already have been ported)).

    Regards, Andrew


    The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 5: paper version from Amazon, PDF from Apress, Online reference: Books 24x7 Personal blog
    marc weber
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    Joined: Aug 31, 2004
    Posts: 11343

    Originally posted by Max Habibi:
    ...I'm not really sure that I want to plop down $3000+ dollars in order to purchase hipness points...

    $3000+ My 2 Macs combined didn't cost that much.

    If people buy Macs just to be "hip," then mismanaging money is probably the least of their problems.

    (Are you making fun of my Apple tattoo? )


    "We're kind of on the level of crossword puzzle writers... And no one ever goes to them and gives them an award." ~Joe Strummer
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    Max Habibi
    town drunk
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    Sheriff

    Joined: Jun 27, 2002
    Posts: 4118
    Originally posted by marc weber:

    $3000+ My 2 Macs combined didn't cost that much.




    This is the one I was looking at: by the time I pay taxes, warranty fees, etc: yup, $3000+



    2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
    1680 x 1050 pixels
    2GB memory
    160GB hard drive1
    8x double-layer SuperDrive
    ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics with 256MB SDRAM
    Ships: Within 24 hours
    Free Shipping
    $2,799.00
    Sonny Gill
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    Joined: Feb 02, 2002
    Posts: 1211

    I have been drooling over macbooks every time I go to the local computer shopping mall. I would probably even overlook the high price, but the cost of added warranty puts me off.
    In Malaysian money it is almost RM 900! sigh!


    The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
    Consultant @ Xebia. Sonny Gill Tweets
    marc weber
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 31, 2004
    Posts: 11343

    Originally posted by Max Habibi:
    ...This is the one I was looking at...

    Well, that particular model would qualify you for almost x+1 hipness points. Who can put a price on that?

    Seriously... Those are impressive specs, but the real reason for using a Mac is the operating system. Before switching, I admired Macs for their aesthetics and I liked the idea of ditching Microsoft, but I was very skeptical about Macs' capabilities and I couldn't understand why users were so fanatic about these machines. I've always struggled with Windows (and still do at work), but I thought this was the nature of computers. I had no idea how defective Windows actually is.

    Of course, Mac isn't the only alternative, but I've never been geek-savvy enough to try Linux. So as someone who wants a machine that works without requiring me to spend a lot of time under the hood...
    M Easter
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 133
    The Mac ads are truly brilliant... each one is excellent but the cumulative effect is fantastic. I'm surprised more companies don't advertise that way (e.g. the Budweiser reptiles... Frank & Louie??)

    My question: I wonder how much effect the Mac ads have on "Mom and Dad"? We geeks love them but hopefully they transcend geekdom and are hitting the masses.


    M Easter
    Software Composer - http://codetojoy.blogspot.com
    Bert Bates
    author
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    Joined: Oct 14, 2002
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        5
    Max,

    If that's the 17" notebook you're referring to, that's exactly the one I just got a week ago. FWIW, over the years Kathy and I have been very successful getting "open box" laptops at Apple stores. The one I just got was an "open box" unit and they knocked off $300.

    Anyway, what other laptops are you comparing this one to? It seems to me that 1440x900 is pretty standard for a 17", I'd guess that if a different brand has 1650x1080 it's going to be pretty pricey. If you drop down to 1440x900 in a Macbook Pro you can shed $1000 pretty fast.


    Spot false dilemmas now, ask me how!
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    Nicholas Jordan
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    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 1282
    While I think they look cool, I'm not really sure that I want to plop down $3000+ dollars in order to purchase hipness points.

    There are better ways to disburse funds for looking cool.

    A bottle of Mad Dog or Night Train Express have cool labels, which can be worn on the attache' case you bought with the money you saved.


    "The differential equations that describe dynamic interactions of power generators are similar to that of the gravitational interplay among celestial bodies, which is chaotic in nature."
    Max Habibi
    town drunk
    ( and author)
    Sheriff

    Joined: Jun 27, 2002
    Posts: 4118
    Originally posted by marc weber:


    Seriously... Those are impressive specs, but the real reason for using a Mac is the operating system. Before switching, I admired Macs for their aesthetics and I liked the idea of ditching Microsoft, but I was very skeptical about Macs' capabilities and I couldn't understand why users were so fanatic about these machines. I've always struggled with Windows (and still do at work), but I thought this was the nature of computers. I had no idea how defective Windows actually is.


    Really? That's a pretty powerful statement. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean? I have to admit, I like modern windows. Mind you, I grew up coding in vi(and hating it). So, to me, the current flavor of Windows is pretty nice. It's easy, it pretty much works with everything, and it's graphical.

    I guess I was always of the variety of geek that didn't really care about the computer, per se: I was always more interested in the problems it could solve. Accordingly, I don't love the complexity of, say, linux installs. I don't really wanna know what that stuff is: I just want it to work, so I can use it as a foundation for more interesting work.

    That, in a weird way, brings me back to my fascination with the Mac: Specifically, the whole iLife thing. I'd love a computer that makes all that stuff easy, and lets me do my job.

    So the question is: does it really make all that stuff as easy as it's advertised to do?
    marc weber
    Sheriff

    Joined: Aug 31, 2004
    Posts: 11343

    Originally posted by Max Habibi:
    ...Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean? ...

    With Windows, I just didn't like...
  • the way apps constantly hung, especially when I tried to do multiple things at once
  • cryptic error messages
  • missing or "corrupt" DLLs
  • constant virus scanning and updates
  • intrusive fire walls
  • certain applications (like Windows Media Player) reclaiming file types
  • taking forever to boot up or shut down
  • new hardware detected (even when there wasn't), and trying to install drivers
  • installation "wizards" that took forever and asked me things that I had no idea how to answer
  • trying to figure out network connections (I gave up)
  • having to perform maintenance (like defragmenting, which never seemed to work anyway)
  • etc.
  • When I switched to Mac, I was constantly amazed at how fast and easy everything was. I could focus on what I wanted to do, rather than trying to fight the computer at every turn.

    I also like the way the apps work together. For example, I can select text in Safari (the browser), right-click, and get a definition from the Dictionary app. Or if I'm putting together a slide show in iPhoto, adding music opens my iTunes library.

    Now, I already mentioned I'm not geek-savvy, so maybe I'm just clueless about how to use Windows. If that's the case, I think over a decade of struggling shows I'm just not going to get it. In any case, ending those frustrations was a huge relief for me.
    rohit leeta
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    Joined: May 02, 2007
    Posts: 49
    The ads were good but downloading a 19Mb Quicktime (actually i really dont like Quicktime) and restarting the firefox to watch them was very bad..


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    Sayak Banerjee
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Nov 28, 2006
    Posts: 292
    I love the ads too....They sure generate some good traffic for the site.

    I think buying a Mac would definitely fetch somebody a lot more than hip points.

    I've always worked on Windows but my very first experience with a Mac was enough to sow the seeds of hatred for Windows. Trust me, it's a completely different experience. Now, that's something that you'd have to experience for yourself. As for citing some advantages here are a few-- some 60 odd viruses for a Mac over a million ones for Windows(practically Mac doesn't require an antivirus), enhanced security compared to that on Windows, quick startup and shutdown, the archive n install feature, the number of bundled softwares like iDVD, iLife, GarageBand, etc., are just a few worth mentioning. Moreover, if you want to run MS products on a Mac that's possible too.....from MS Office to IE, you got all of them for a Mac.

    But I agree on one thing....it's really a bit too expensive......but I guess that's ok when you consider the whole package(because it's not just a computer......IT'S A MAC)


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    Alan Wanweird
    Greenhorn

    Joined: Apr 30, 2007
    Posts: 25
    Heres me thinking this was going to be an interesting thread about the the ethics of advertising fast-food and aiming it it children - or making questionable claims about nutrition... and I'm disappointed.

    Turns out you werent thinking of *that* "Mac" - just wanting to talk about 'puters... <yawn>
    [ May 14, 2007: Message edited by: Alan Wanweird ]
    Ganpi Srinivasan
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    Joined: Aug 17, 2005
    Posts: 160
    Probably it is just me - but the Mac ads were ridiculing PC and not MS! So if someone is concerned about these ads, it should be PC manufacturers like Dell, Sony etc. and not Microsoft. Of course, Mac has a niche with its clientele but Microsoft has and probably would still continue to enjoy the lion's share of the market. After all, the PC revolutionized the use of computers by bringing them into our homes, from giant air-conditioned labs. Dicey!
    Bear Bibeault
    Author and ninkuma
    Marshal

    Joined: Jan 10, 2002
    Posts: 61606
        
      67

    The ads are clearly jabs at PC running Windows. None of the jabs that they take would apply to a PC runnning Ubuntu, for instance.

    After all, the PC revolutionized the use of computers by bringing them into our homes


    While this is true, Windows is now holding the industry back. Just look at this very thread in which people think that Windows is "just the way computers work" and don't realize what a house of cards it is until they experience something else. I "grew up" on RSX, VAX/VMS and UNIX and was completely aghast when I fell into the Windows world. And I can still cannot understand why people put up with it apart fomr just plain not knowing that that's not the way it has to be.

    One of the best sig lines I've seen to date:

    "OS X, because making UNIX friendly was easier than fixing Windows"


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    stephen gates
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    Joined: Apr 30, 2007
    Posts: 69
    The problem is you can get most everything to run on a Windows machine. Most software and hardware are built for windows. When I lived away from a major city, there were not "MAC" stores and the local electronic stores rarely sold MACs. So unless i traveled 50+ miles or ordered online, the Mac was nice but i couldn't buy anything for it.

    Now that I live in the City, i can purchase more things, but then again, half of what MAC has is overpriced. "But it's a MAC" is akin to what Cult members say. That's what the MAC is, a Steve Jobs cult. No matter what Apple does, they are always deemed "right." Delay Leopard, "hey it's ok." A Phone that costs 700 bucks that is nothing special, "hey that's great."

    I will say my Mac doesn't crash like my Windows machines did. But i've gotten my Mac to crash and lock up. The "free" software like I-Photo and all that is nice, but it's more or less, something non-tech people use. It's not Photoshop and it's kind of cheesey.

    The biggest difference is people spend 500 Bucks on a Windows based machine and expect miracles. They spend 2K on a MAC and say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. If I spend 2K on a Windows machine it should run a lot better than a 500 buck computer.

    Windows has a lot of problems and i hate developing on it, but this notion that Mac is the be all end all is just nothing more than another "Cult" pushing an overpriced product.

    Of course Mac doesn't have as many viruses, most businesses and people aren't using them. Spammers and hacks and criminals go toward what would get them the most return or attention.

    If you go into a bank, 99 percent of the time it's Windows on those machines. Yeah the backends might be unix or mainframe, but how viruses spread are because of the employees. And they run windows. Go into corporate offices, it's Windows. the list goes on. So when somebody tries to hack into a computer, it'll probably be Windows.

    When you have less than 10 percent of a market, you probably won't get hacked often. Nobody cares. That's why.

    If somebody crashed alta vista's search engine, nobody would care much. If somebody crashed Google's search engine, everybody cares. That's why Window's is prone to viruses and hacks.

    And it's nearly impossible to get OSX unless you purchase a MAC. Yet I can buy or download Linux, Windows, Unix, Solaris and so on.

    If Microsoft told you you couldn't purchase Windows unless you bought a new machine, they'd be called evil. Yet that's what Apple Inc. does.. Yeah they are no longer called Apple Computers for a reason.

    I like my MAC and use it more than Windows, but the fact is, when people slurp all over the MAC it's akin to gullable people joining a Cult.
    [ May 15, 2007: Message edited by: stephen gates ]
    [ May 15, 2007: Message edited by: stephen gates ]
    Bear Bibeault
    Author and ninkuma
    Marshal

    Joined: Jan 10, 2002
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      67

    Oh, and I thought I was going to stay out of this one...

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    The problem is you can get most everything to run on a Windows machine. Most software and hardware are built for windows


    Just because "most" stuff is targetted at PCs, it's a common fallacy that that means it's hard to find stuff for a Mac. (By the way, it's Mac not MAC. The latter is usually an acronym for Media Access Control). I've never had any problem getting a piece of hardware or software that does what I want.

    When I lived away from a major city, there were not "MAC" stores and the local electronic stores rarely sold MACs.


    Many major (and non-major) cities have Apple Stores. Here in Austin there are two, and the Fry's and CompUSA's also have Mac sections. That said, I never buy there. Everything is available online (MacMall.com is a favorite) so proximity to an Apple Store is a non-issue.

    what MAC has is overpriced.


    Another fallacy. If you actually compare specs, Macs are in line with prices from reputable PC vendors. And as with anything, you've got to be a smart shopper. Never, for example, buy memory directly from Apple. You'll get better deals from 3rd party manufacturers.

    a Steve Jobs cult.


    Boy, that's a tired one. While there are "zealots" on all sides of the fence, the vast majority of Apple fans like Macs because they help us get the job done (or are easy to use for play). I'm 49, overweight, and bald. I could care less about "beng cool" or "trendy" or "just because Steve said it"

    No matter what Apple does, they are always deemed "right."


    You apparently don't follow the Mac forums. Every move that Apple makes is scrutinized and more oftenthan not Apple is taken to task when they don't meet the needs of the customer base. Just today for example, new MacBooks were announced ant there's a uproar of disatisfaction with the updates and prices that were announced.

    Delay Leopard, "hey it's ok."


    Again, you apparently don't have the pulse of the community. There was a great broo-haha over that. But... we'd also rather wait for a few months for something solid rather than a half-baked OS.

    A Phone that costs 700 bucks that is nothing special, "hey that's great."


    Again, on what do you base this? I have no interest. Some do. Just like any other product. Please don't generalize.

    It's not Photoshop and it's kind of cheesey.


    It's not meant to be Photoshop. And for what it is meant to be, I find it an execllent tool. How do define "cheesey"?

    Windows has a lot of problems and i hate developing on it, but this notion that Mac is the be all end all is just nothing more than another "Cult" pushing an overpriced product.


    We sort of agree on something. Anyone who accepts everything on blind faith is a fool. But, in my experience, that does not describe the average Mac user. At least not the many of my aquaintance.

    As for overpriced. I don't agree. Not only are the prices, for what you get, comparable, but I place a high price on my time and psyche. Not having to spend it futzing around with Windows anymore is worth a lot to me. My hair is gone -- I have none left to pull out.

    Go into corporate offices, it's Windows.


    I'm in a corporate office. I have a MacBook Pro. Yeah, PCs have a larger market share, but that doesn't mean Macs are excluded from corporate settings.

    And it's nearly impossible to get OSX unless you purchase a MAC.


    Well, duh. What would you run it on? And if you have a machine to run it on, you can buy OS X as many times as you want. I don't see your point which seems to be implying that you can;t upgrade OS X without a new machine purchase. Completely not true.

    If Microsoft told you you couldn't purchase Windows unless you bought a new machine, they'd be called evil.


    Apple doesn't make you buy a new machine. But you obviously have to have one to run the OS X on.

    Microsoft produced an OS for commodity hardware. Apple produces hardware and an OS (an excellent one) to run on it. They're completely different business models. Again what's your point? If you want to upgrade OS X, you can buy it just like you can buy a new version of Windows. No new machine necessary.
    stephen gates
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Apr 30, 2007
    Posts: 69
    I have no problem with the Mac. It's what I use the most now.
    But the fact is it is far easier to get programs for Windows than for the Mac. There are more software vendors who make things for Windows. Does that make them better? Not by a long shot, it just means I can go to a local electronic store and purchase one. But I couldn't always do that with the Mac. And there were no Mac stores within 50 miles from where I once lived. There were plenty of best stores, circuit stores, and so on. they never sold Macs. Not where I lived.

    Like I said, when i lived in NYC, there were a few Mac stores. It wasn't huge, but they were around. That was a few years back though, things might be different now. But since I moved to the west coast, the "cult" of Steve Jobs is huge. The Mac stores are always over crowded. There are far more people who jump for joy at anything Apple does.

    Maybe where you live it might be different. But where I live now, in a city next to Redmond, Wa, there are Mac stores in every mall. People are far more "cult" like than Windows users here. I mean I live in a city next to where the big "evil" empire is located and most, even those who once worked for that empire, hate that same empire.

    From my experience, while not all Mac users are "cult" like followers, people on the West coast and in the NW are far more into the "cult" of Steve Jobs compared to most people I knew when I lived on the East coast and in NYC. Maybe that's not a Mac thing at all but a location thing. I don't know but people out here fawn over everything Apple does.
    Ulf Dittmer
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    Joined: Mar 22, 2005
    Posts: 42595
        
      65
    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    I mean I live in a city next to where the big "evil" empire is located and most, even those who once worked for that empire, hate that same empire.


    Coincidence? I think not


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    Andrew Monkhouse
    author and jackaroo
    Marshal Commander

    Joined: Mar 28, 2003
    Posts: 11503
        
      95

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    The problem is you can get most everything to run on a Windows machine. Most software and hardware are built for windows.

    [snip]

    The biggest difference is people spend 500 Bucks on a Windows based machine and expect miracles. They spend 2K on a MAC and say it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. If I spend 2K on a Windows machine it should run a lot better than a 500 buck computer.
    Don't your two comments contradict each other?

    If I spend $x on a machine and software, I expect it to work. I don't expect to have to reboot the machine just because some add-on software got updated. I don't expect it to fail in mysterious ways because two bits of hardware don't interact.

    It is interesting to see that Microsoft have realized that their initial model was not working, and no longer support all the hardware they used to. So they are getting closer to the Apple model.

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    Of course Mac doesn't have as many viruses, most businesses and people aren't using them. Spammers and hacks and criminals go toward what would get them the most return or attention.
    There is some truth in that, however there is also truth in the adage that they will go for the easiest targets. If all a cracker wants to do is get access to a box so that they can use it to relay spam, then they probably don't care what the OS is. In fact, it is probably better for them to attack an OS that can act as a mail server. So they are probably better off attacking Solaris or Linux or OSX. But it is usually considered easier to attack Microsoft.

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    And it's nearly impossible to get OSX unless you purchase a MAC. Yet I can buy or download Linux, Windows, Unix, Solaris and so on.
    No it's not - you can go into any Mac store and buy OSX, or go online and buy it - for example, through this Amazon.com link.

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    If Microsoft told you you couldn't purchase Windows unless you bought a new machine, they'd be called evil.
    Actually Microsoft went the other way - they tried to say that you couldn't buy a PC without buying Microsoft Windows. Far more insidious.

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    Yet that's what Apple Inc. does..
    No they don't. See link above for evidence that they don't.

    Originally posted by stephen gates:
    Yeah they are no longer called Apple Computers for a reason.
    True - they no longer sell just computers. They also sell iPods, and the Apple TV, and software, and add on peripherals.

    Originally posted by Ganpi Srinivasan:
    Of course, Mac has a niche with its clientele but Microsoft has and probably would still continue to enjoy the lion's share of the market. After all, the PC revolutionized the use of computers by bringing them into our homes, from giant air-conditioned labs. Dicey!
    Not quite true - PCs were late coming into the home market, many other manufacturers were there first. Apple had a great user interface available on their computers years before Microsoft even started looking at GUI. What Microsoft did right was getting onboard with IBM and the combination proved too powerful. But that brings an interesting point: things can change. Consider the very terminology we use: PC - back in the early 90s we would have referred to that as an IBM PC. Later we started referring to IBM compatible PCs. These days we just refer to PCs. It is an incorrect naming convention, but it shows that IBM has lost it's market share where once it was king. Microsoft could loose it's market share as well.

    Regards, Andrew
     
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    subject: Mac Ads