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A Reply to Fred from the influential books thread

 
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Instead of highjacking that thread, I started this new thread.

Originally posted by Fred Rosenberger:
I have not. My understanding, from what i've read and heard about it, is that it's basically a 'power of positive thinking' type book. It says things like "the only thing preventing you from having money is thinking you can't have money. Think 'I deserve money' and 'Money will come to me' and it will happen.".

My problem with this is that if you take this to it's logical conclusion, then the jews brought the Holocaust upon themsevles, black brought slavery upon themselves, and so on. Basically it (to me) seems to be a 'blame the victim' book.



That is going out on a limb a bit Fred. Anyway, I have not read the book at all, my mom has both the book and the DVD.

But I will say this, don't quite knock it till you try it. Meaning if I am negative about money, saying things like "I don't have enough" etc, it does put a strain on how much money you have. It is kind of like most, and I say most people like to be around positive people and get dragged down being around negative people.

Here is my experience, I have been in the situation where I had no money, because I had no job, I made 5K, 6K, and 10K for three years. I couldn't make money because I was negative about money. But for some reason, I was still able to eat, money just showed up when it was needed for survival. Now I have over 15K already in credit card debt and was in default and in collections.

Then I went to one of those positive thinking seminars. After that is when everything happened. This is in 1996, I got a job payed 45K, I started paying off my debt through one of those Credit Card Counseling companies, which I don't recommend anymore if you have collections in debt. I got raises and I met my wife, we bought a house, it appreciated double.

I am now not worried about money, I feel like I spend a lot more than before, and get some big things, they just always seem to come up, like two days ago, I found out I have to pay $400 for a crown on my tooth, and we have to get a new Stove/Range which is over $500, and now we have to buy Patio Furniture and a Desk, and I broke my leg in Jan and have medical expenses because the health insurance I get from work sucks, etc. Lots of things that should make our cash flow negative, but for some reason the bank account keeps going up instead of down, and I can guarantee you that it is because I don't have any negative thoughts to money anymore.

I can't explain it how it works, and I don't want to, it just does.

Mark
[ August 07, 2007: Message edited by: Mark Spritzler ]
 
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What is the difference between your having good thoughts causing good things to happen, and someone else having bad thoughts causing bad things to happen?

if good things only happen to those with positive thoughts, then bad things happen to people who don't have positive thoughts.

Therefore, someone who gets killed, enslaved, breaks their leg - whatever - MUST NOT be having positive thoughts.

How is my logic different than yours?

f I am negative about money, saying things like "I don't have enough" etc, it does put a strain on how much money you have.


How? How does the amount of money i have change based on what I am thinking? How i USE the money changes, perhaps. but the actual $ amount doesn't. This can easily be proven by thinking "i don't have enough money", and checking my account balance. Then, I can think "I have LOTS of money", and check my balance again. I'll be willing to bet you all the money in there that the amount doesn't change unless there is a legitimate deposit or withdrawal.

Here is my experience


So, you are presenting an insufficient sample size of a biased survey where the participant were 100% aware of the experiment.

I question your methodology.

I think what happened was that while your thinking changed, your behavior also changed. You spent less money on frivolous things. You got a good paying job. a job that more than quadrupled your income (basing this on going from 10k to 45k). don't you think THAT had more of a factor on your financial situation that your THOUGHTS?
 
Mark Spritzler
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Positive and negative thinking affects in a long run. I can't jsut put a thought out there right now and expect my reality at that moment to completely change. And we live in a world with lots of people all with their own thoughts that interact with us and out thoughts that have an affect. All I am saying is that think about investors lets say, You want to get money for a project. If you go in there all negative, even if you try to hide it, which your really can't, investors won't invest in your idea. If you come in with a positive attitude and thoughts it is noticable and adds to you probability of success.

When it comes to results, I can only give you my experience. But, I can say that I have heard from lots of others where they were successful too and acknowledge how much postive thinking helped.

Also, I am not trying to change your mind or even convince you, I already know that is one of those things that I cannot do, only you can change your mind. I am trying to help for helping alone, not for any gain that I would get from it.



Mark
 
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What is the difference between your having good thoughts causing good things to happen, and someone else having bad thoughts causing bad things to happen?



Well, maybe there is no difference? Indeed, how else would you explain the events which happen in one's life? Is this all an accident? Random set of experiences thrown one's way?
On the other hand, doesn't an indivudual's state of mind influence all those around him? Sure it does. And the set of experiences one goes through in life is naturally a reaction to the influence exerted by the indivudual on nature. Cause and effect. Like they say, Karma is a bit**. Never fails to come back bite you back.
 
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I can't jsut put a thought out there right now and expect my reality at that moment to completely change.



- How about this thought?
I ask Fred about, tell me how many times you see Red colour everyday. He would probably reply. Not much.
Consider Fred has ordered a red porsche in a showroom. The moment he had ordered it and he comes out of the building, everything he sees would be red. He would start seeing even the slightest tinge of red around him. Now, what has altered, is it the colour red or Fred. That's exactly Mark's argument.
It's not the money around you which is altered, it's your relationship/perception with money. You suddenly feel that there is so much money around you.

The after effects of which, you would probably get things[like a red keychain for the Car], do things which would be aligned to your thoughts [like start thinking about getting a Spider-man sticker as you think the red and black colour combination would make it look good on your car and moreover you son likes it too.] Ultimately, you would end up being surrounded by Red and it's related things. The list of red things around you would increase. You would start living Red.

That's exactly my argument too. It's all about proverbial realization you would get after that. You would start playing the game of red.
[ August 06, 2007: Message edited by: Arun Kumarr ]
 
fred rosenberger
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so basicall, what i'm reading here, is that it's not the fact that i'm thinking "i will get money" that makes the difference, but my behavior, my actions, and my attitude.

Mark, to me it sounds like there are too many variables in the process for you to specifically state that this ONE thing caused the difference. your example with the investors proves my point. if the ONLY difference in going in front of the investors is my belief i deserve the money - but i still make the same presentation, say the same things, use the same inflection, keep the same facial expressions - i doubt there will be any different outcome.

Indeed, how else would you explain the events which happen in one's life? Is this all an accident? Random set of experiences thrown one's way?

I would say yes, it is exactly this.

doesn't an indivudual's state of mind influence all those around him?

Not unless that person can read your mind - and I don't believe in that either. I would say your ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR influences others, not what thought process is in my brain.

Karma is a bit**. Never fails to come back bite you back.

I don't believe in Karma. I do believe in regression towards the mean. Some good things are going to happen, and some bad, regardless of what actions I take.
 
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Originally posted by Arun Kumarr:
- How about this thought?
I ask Fred about, tell me how many times you see Red colour everyday. He would probably reply. Not much.
Consider Fred has ordered a red porsche in a showroom. The moment he had ordered it and he comes out of the building, everything he sees would be red. He would start seeing even the slightest tinge of red around him. Now, what has altered, is it the colour red or Fred. That's exactly Mark's argument.
It's not the money around you which is altered, it's your relationship/perception with money.[ August 06, 2007: Message edited by: Arun Kumarr ]



When I bought my red porsche, I didn't start seeing everything around me as red, but I can certainly say the amount of money around me had altered, and not in a good way.
 
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I would say yes, it is exactly this.



Well, I think we have to agree to disagree on this regard. However, It is highly unlikely that events are random.


I don't believe in Karma. I do believe in regression towards the mean. Some good things are going to happen, and some bad, regardless of what actions I take.



Regression towards the mean? Well, I would like to hear your explanation on this one, as even such a regression would need a cause, and we come back to the same old cause and effect theory.
Also, when you say, "regardless of what actions I take", I hope you dont really mean that, as no one can deny what you are today is a sum today of the events in your life upto this point.


Not unless that person can read your mind - and I don't believe in that either. I would say your ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR influences others, not what thought process is in my brain.



I dont recall committing any action without some emotion, thought, instinct or desire promoting it. Bottom line, our actions and behaviour are an expressions of our psyche.
 
Mark Spritzler
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but i still make the same presentation, say the same things, use the same inflection, keep the same facial expressions - i doubt there will be any different outcome.



Actually, I would say there will be a different outcome, simply because your thoughts will play a part, because when you have negative thoughts, they are visible at a different level that you would see or hear, but you still sense them. And, you have heard this before. They had a gut feeling about this person, or it just didn't feel right, even thought the appearance was the same, they get this at a different level, where the thoughts come from.

That is my opinion and my experience.

Have Fun.

Mark
 
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Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:


They had a gut feeling about this person, or it just didn't feel right, even thought the appearance was the same, they get this at a different level, where the thoughts come from.

That is my opinion and my experience.

Have Fun.

Mark




I agree with Mark on this point, the sense works at a cumulative level. Say you are interviewing two people, all things being equal as in similar qualification, similar experience, similar interview answers and you can just choose one person in which case the person who seemed more at ease gets selected and the person more probably than not is has more positive thoughts about the interview than the other guy.
 
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Bottom line, our actions and behaviour are an expressions of our psyche.



I agree with that, provided you know what your own psyhce is, you know what you have gone through and how you perceive it and act ahead. And it is this perception that gets cleaved into positive and negative thinking.
 
Arun Kumarr
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Originally posted by Joanne Neal:


When I bought my red porsche, I didn't start seeing everything around me as red, but I can certainly say the amount of money around me had altered, and not in a good way.



First thing. Wow. You have a red porsche.
I had methaphorised money as red porsche. So, do not confuse by comparing the porsche with the money you had. I wonder you really got my "playing the game of something". You sound as if you were really sober after getting a red porsche and i know you weren't really.
[ August 07, 2007: Message edited by: Arun Kumarr ]
 
Mark Spritzler
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Sorry Fred, but I just re-read what I quoted and realized I missed the last line

"Basically it (to me) seems to be a 'blame the victim' book."

Ohh, this is a great statement, because it all comes down to a point where perception plays a huge part in determining your positive or negative thinking. Because you said "victim". Whereas I perceive the book as "taking responsibility" which gives you the power. Meaning If I am in control of my thoughts (Much easier said than done), then I am responsible for my outcome, which means I am not a victim anymore, I can determine how things will be, I have the power.

I am not giving someone else the power, and leaving me with taking the victim role.

I am just more empowered and motivated with positive thinking than when I have negative thinking. And don't get me wrong, I am very good at thinking negatively. It always seems easier to be negative than to think positive.

Mark
 
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Originally posted by Arun Kumarr:


First thing. Wow. You have a red porsche.
I had methaphorised money as red porsche. So, do not confuse by comparing the porsche with the money you had. I wonder you really got my "playing the game of something". You sound as if you were really sober after getting a red porsche and i know you weren't really.

[ August 07, 2007: Message edited by: Arun Kumarr ]



I wasn't confused. I just thought this post was getting way too serious for a meaningless drivel discussion. Thought I'd add a bit of silliness. Guess i should have included a few
 
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Originally posted by Akhilesh Trivedi:


I agree with that, provided you know what your own psyhce is, you know what you have gone through and how you perceive it and act ahead. And it is this perception that gets cleaved into positive and negative thinking.



Not necessarily, most of our so called accidental or instinctive behaviour comes from the subconscious/unconscious mind, not everything needs to be a conscious act.
 
Mark Spritzler
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Originally posted by Joanne Neal:


I wasn't confused. I just thought this post was getting way too serious for a meaningless drivel discussion. Thought I'd add a bit of silliness. Guess i should have included a few



Yeah, I was starting to wonder the same thing, that this was getting too serious for MD. So I closed the thread myself. And it will drop to obscurity.

Mark
 
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