aspose file tools*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes Why are most programmers uncool? Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Spring in Action this week in the Spring forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "Why are most programmers uncool?" Watch "Why are most programmers uncool?" New topic
Author

Why are most programmers uncool?

William Telman
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 17
Geeks maybe?
I'm cool!
U cool?
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

'Cool' is defined by a group diametrically opposed to that containing programmers.
Jesus Angeles
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 2057
It is so uncool to be cool, unless you really are cool, which means you are so uncool. Are we cool on that?
Max Habibi
town drunk
( and author)
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 4118
Programming requires that you pay attention to every conceivable thing that could go wrong. Being cool requires the opposite.


Java Regular Expressions
Srikanth Raghavan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2005
Posts: 389
Originally posted by Max Habibi:
Programming requires that you pay attention to every conceivable thing that could go wrong. Being cool requires the opposite.


I am a programmer, so I am not cool... Hey wait a minute? Am I *HOT*?


[ March 29, 2008: Message edited by: Srikanth Raghavan ]
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by David O'Meara:
'Cool' is defined by a group diametrically opposed to that containing programmers.

That's why I define my own "cool."

(Unfortunately, I don't even meet my own criteria.)


"We're kind of on the level of crossword puzzle writers... And no one ever goes to them and gives them an award." ~Joe Strummer
sscce.org
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18657
    
    8

If you look at what Marshall McLuhan said about hot and cool media, you will see that programming deals much more with cool media. Example:
They require more active participation on the part of the user, including the perception of abstract patterning and simultaneous comprehension of all parts.
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

So as someone old enough to have seen The Clash live in '82, if I were to pay around $61 (US) for this shirt...



...would that make me cool? Or would it only demonstrate the opposite?
David O'Meara
Rancher

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 13459

My mum says I'm cool.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Originally posted by marc weber:

...would that make me cool? Or would it only demonstrate the opposite?


My daughter says that t-shirts that are clearly older than she is are cool. More so if they are obviously worn and loved.

However, nothing will ever make me cool
William Telman
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 17
Cool is what Cool does
What were you all up to last night. It's amazing how cool programming can be around girls. Just talk about hacking ....
Nicholas Jordan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
PF   However, nothing will ever make me cool

I have been wondering about that, one's perception of an individual rarely if ever matches daily life reality. I picture you pulling onto the tarmac in a 2008 Chrysler 300 Touring � Gene Hackman as Team Lead relaxes, goes to get some coffee or something .... watching from the Waffle House across the street we see Airman First Class Smith recognize you and step up to the vehicle. You get out as being a big man, to accomplish grasping your immediate physical surroundings it is often more comfortable to be out of the vehicle where you can scan the threat field with your own eyes. Like running Tomcat with the securty.policy set to minimal or debug with the network running like it was yesterday, you can sorta do it by nature better than relying on some gizmo on the dashboard that tells you: "Everything is alll...right"

AFC Smith starts to step away, folder in hand, an asks briefly if there is anything we can do about side channel attacks, "Not really." you reply "Not really, Green Apples will have some thumbprint reading capability when that product line gets in production - but until then we are stuck with people who consider %20%20 to be a fortified brew not fitting for Saloons> Plus, we have equipment that drives everything with tabbing order and considers bus mis-alignment to be no big deal." H'mmm. from both and they walk off or get back in car or as line-director calls the shot.

I never can seem to get an uptake for what goes after that, I dismiss that as intrinsic in the investigation scoped by the post title. I just go on about my work.

BTW the bcc of what I sent to Blue Monday yesterday bounced becase of PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 14): 554 No relaying allowed - psmtp Quarantine the logs, be prepared for doing restores. This never happend in real telco, even the misplaced break on 1-800 day got fixed faster than yesterday.
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by Pat Farrell:
... My daughter says that t-shirts that are clearly older than she is are cool...

In 1982, I weighed about 145 pounds and wore "medium" t-shirts, which at that time were tiny. Twenty-six years later and 20 pounds heavier, I can't imagine it would be "cool" to try to squeeze into one of those.

On the other hand...



Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
My theory:

Many genetic disorders are the result of having too many genes which, when more moderately present, provide a survival advantage. Get one gene for sickle-cell anemia and you are immune to malaria; get two genes and you live a short, painful, disabled life. Get one gene for cystic fibrosis and you are much less likely to suffer a miscarriage; get two of them and you die young of failed lungs. Get one gene for Tay-Sachs, and you are highly resistant to tuberculosis; get two of them and you die in early childhood.

An older evolutionary push has been towards the development of intelligence; and I suspect there are probably a great many genes, when present, increase intelligence of various types. However, various random combinations of these genes, reacting to various hormones or viruses, can sometimes produce negative side-effects. Because there are so many of these genes, with so many permutations, there is a full spectrum of degree to which those negative side-effects burden a person. Here, I am speaking of autistic traits; the more of these intelligence-producing genes or mutations you have, the more likely you are to be intelligent, but also, the more likely you are to suffer from various autistic traits.

The spectrum goes from profoundly autistic an incommunicative, to the barely communicative idiot-savants who combine weird mental powers with an inability to take care of themselves, to the socially retarded but often brilliant people with Aspergers Syndrome (who often become great mathematicians and chess champions -- famed for their weird indiosyncracies), to the common computer programming and engineering nerd.

The "cool" person, in contrast, is socially highly able. He exhibits no unconventional personal oddities (aside from any he consciously _choose_ to take on for effect). He has no autistic traits, but not having so many of these special intelligence-enhancing genes or mutations, the majority of such people are of quite ordinary, average intelligence.

Yes, there are a few people who suffer from mental retardation that affects both their social intelligence and their ability to think logically. For the most part, they're charity cases living in institutions and half-way houses.

And yes, there are a very rare few people who are both highly socially intelligent and also exhibit pretty good mathematical/logical intelligence in symbolic thinking. These people can become great leaders -- generals, captains of industry, and cultivators of great universities. And as few as these people are in number, only a small portion of them develop such a love of computer programming that they would devote themselves to this at the expense of their opportunity to achieve great fame, wealth and power in some other role.

Therefore, the vast majority of people who have both the kind of intelligence needed to do computer programming and the willingness to accept this modest, humble role in society -- are people whose mild Asperger traits prevent them from pursuing higher powered careers, or which at least make careers centered around dealing with people-problems unattractive to them.

These mild Asperger traits are the essence of nerdliness; the implicit deficit in the more subtle social abilities are what make the programmers seem uncool to the "neurotypicals" (the word Aspergers sufferers use in referring to normal people).
William Telman
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 17
Dude, are you kidding me! My brother yesterday was telling me that many genetic disorders are the result of having too many genes which, when more moderately present, provide a survival advantage. Get one gene for sickle-cell anemia and you are immune to malaria; get two genes and you live a short, painful, disabled life. Get one gene for cystic fibrosis and you are much less likely to suffer a miscarriage; get two of them and you die young of failed lungs. Get one gene for Tay-Sachs, and you are highly resistant to tuberculosis; get two of them and you die in early childhood.

An older evolutionary push has been towards the development of intelligence; and I suspect there are probably a great many genes, when present, increase intelligence of various types. However, various random combinations of these genes, reacting to various hormones or viruses, can sometimes produce negative side-effects. Because there are so many of these genes, with so many permutations, there is a full spectrum of degree to which those negative side-effects burden a person. Here, I am speaking of autistic traits; the more of these intelligence-producing genes or mutations you have, the more likely you are to be intelligent, but also, the more likely you are to suffer from various autistic traits.

The spectrum goes from profoundly autistic an incommunicative, to the barely communicative idiot-savants who combine weird mental powers with an inability to take care of themselves, to the socially retarded but often brilliant people with Aspergers Syndrome (who often become great mathematicians and chess champions -- famed for their weird indiosyncracies), to the common computer programming and engineering nerd.

The "cool" person, in contrast, is socially highly able. He exhibits no unconventional personal oddities (aside from any he consciously _choose_ to take on for effect). He has no autistic traits, but not having so many of these special intelligence-enhancing genes or mutations, the majority of such people are of quite ordinary, average intelligence.

Yes, there are a few people who suffer from mental retardation that affects both their social intelligence and their ability to think logically. For the most part, they're charity cases living in institutions and half-way houses.

And yes, there are a very rare few people who are both highly socially intelligent and also exhibit pretty good mathematical/logical intelligence in symbolic thinking. These people can become great leaders -- generals, captains of industry, and cultivators of great universities. And as few as these people are in number, only a small portion of them develop such a love of computer programming that they would devote themselves to this at the expense of their opportunity to achieve great fame, wealth and power in some other role.

Therefore, the vast majority of people who have both the kind of intelligence needed to do computer programming and the willingness to accept this modest, humble role in society -- are people whose mild Asperger traits prevent them from pursuing higher powered careers, or which at least make careers centered around dealing with people-problems unattractive to them.

These mild Asperger traits are the essence of nerdliness; the implicit deficit in the more subtle social abilities are what make the programmers seem uncool to the "neurotypicals" (the word Aspergers sufferers use in referring to normal people).
Nicholas Jordan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
RE: Frank Silbermann @ 9:07 A.M.

Over 99% of species that ever lived are now extinct, but extinction occurs at an uneven rate. (Source: Wikipedia)

Would the geeks do any better than the neurotypicals in a Toba Event ?
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Geeks spend their time with computers and in the engineering lab.

Cool people spend their time with people of the appropriate sex.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Originally posted by Nicholas Jordan:
RE: Frank Silbermann @ 9:07 A.M.

Over 99% of species that ever lived are now extinct, but extinction occurs at an uneven rate. (Source: Wikipedia)

Would the geeks do any better than the neurotypicals in a Toba Event ?
I'm reversing my original answer. In a stable, unchanging environment it is more efficient to be normal -- to be good at watching what other people do and imitating them. During times of rapid change, conventional habits may cease to be productive; a person who tends to think things through may come up with an adaptation. Therefore, in a period of rapid change, eg. a Toba event, a band of humans would have been more likely to survive if they'd been carrying around a geek or two (even though, until then, their difficulty imitating others would probably have probably been a burden to them and to their tribe). So it's possible that the Toba event radically increased the proportion of people in the (now tiny) population having these geek mutations. That may be why for 70,000 years homo sapiens sapiens had a culture just as primitive as Neanderthal Man, and then, after the population recovered from this Toba event, higher culture seemed suddenly to flourish.

It's also likely that different populations were affected to greater or lesser extents than others by this catastrophe; many communities were wiped out completely, and perhaps some communities very far from the event in more inherently protective climates were only slightly affected -- with the effects greatest in those regions where most people were wiped out, but not quite all of them.

Originally posted by Pat Farrell:
Geeks spend their time with computers and in the engineering lab.

Cool people spend their time with people of the appropriate sex.
Normal people stumble over logic, but interpersonal nonverbal communication comes to them naturally.

Aspies (people with traits of Asperger's Syndrome), in contrast, often seem to grok logic naturally and precociously, but have inferior intuition when it comes to nonverbal interpersonal communication. This makes it difficult for them to solve "people problems" -- which in turn tends to make them avoid dealing with people issues if they can (giving them less practice as well).

Unfortunately for such people, when you find yourself in a hotel room on business in a strange city and you decide you'd like to meet a nice looking member of the appropriate sex and convince that person to come up to your room and take off all of her (his?) clothes off and have a "one-night stand", well, that's a "people problem" to be solved. It's much like the task of a leader attracting followers, a boss motivating employees to give their best at the task he wants them to do, a salesman convincing potential customers to buy his product.

It's not that geeks aren't interested in sex, just as you cannot say that burger-flippers have no interest in the pay rate engineers receive. It's more a matter of not wanting to do things that cause you to beat your head against the wall in frustration.

Aspies identify with TV shows such as Star Trek, in which the heroes investigate strange, new cultures -- because the culture of normal people is strange and new to them.
[ April 01, 2008: Message edited by: Frank Silbermann ]
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

I'm not sure we're getting any closer to an answer here, but we have reaffirmed the premise.
William Telman
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 17
I think the answers posted so far and the language/sentence construction and choice of words clearly demonstrate the complete lack of "Cool" on the side of programmers.
I really want to point out that having a brain and using it all day shouldn't deprive oneself from having a bit of color!

Thus, programmers be cool
Nicholas Jordan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
[Frank Silbermann:]   Normal people stumble over logic, but interpersonal nonverbal communication comes to them naturally.

This is one of those root kits, defining - not re-defining - existence as normals those who by simple numerics rule the world we live in. It is not that Aspies lack non-verbal intrinsics, it is that they do it totally and at-will without any need for training or adulation. Take for example the moment in the Second Grade when in discussions with the Principal, the Teacher was passing authority for a proposed two-week repatriation of our family. Fearful of the normals to do the justice that the moment obviously entailed, I blurted to the Principal that the round object in front of us was only a model of the world, not the actual world it's-self and described the world for real in a manner that normals, so-called because they drive the relationship between economic activity and social life with an Iron Maiden's gasp, in a manner Normals could grasp.

Compliant, and fearful of disclosure for their shallow work, they maintain an impoverished show of force to retian their total lack of something as simple as Time-Dialation, prefering Brain-Dialation by penta-hexa-phenol so that non-compliance with strict (...snip...)

[Frank Silbermann:]   Aspies (people with traits of Asperger's Syndrome), in contrast, often seem to grok logic naturally and precociously, but have inferior intuition when it comes to nonverbal interpersonal communication. This makes it difficult for them to solve "people problems" -- which in turn tends to make them avoid dealing with people issues if they can (giving them less practice as well).

What are you doing, are you giving me this break to expose me? I groked a "people issue" there in the second grade at about the same time when directed to follow instructions in a coloring book that were not instructions by any measure, it was just a picture of a cowboy in fuzzy pants. I did what they obviously were expecting and cheated. I got hammered by the teacher in front of the whole class. I am talking about an adult to adult hammering that breaks people, and yesterday we saw that the contemporary approach to contemporary risks will be to take the science of designing buildings and other physical structures in a direction that moderates people - same scope and scale as contemporary economic reforms announced yesterday target moderation and long-term stability - then watches for anyone who looks angry. It is the same type of cheap-trick as cheap-chicks and dioxin-tainted mozzarella. Buy or Die, our marching orders from Cuttham, Burnham & Runn, Counsel of Record for Brave New World Enterprises. It is like you saying you reversed your position. You did not reverse anything, you just brought out some details and facts ... facts that may be super-scalar for someone like William Telman who may not have been here when we held the Mirror of Time up to the OC-3072 and got a marketing campaign, which was dicey for Aspies, but as usual had no real effect on the Iron Maiden's grasp.

[Frank Silbermann:]   Unfortunately for such people, when you find yourself in a hotel room on business in a strange city and you decide you'd like to meet a nice looking member of the appropriate sex and convince that person to come up to your room and take off all of her (his?) clothes off and have a "one-night stand", well, that's a "people problem" to be solved. It's much like the task of a leader attracting followers, a boss motivating employees to give their best at the task he wants them to do, a salesman convincing potential customers to buy his product.

So who was selling what to General Spitzer? It's just the Iron Maiden's grasp, the Iron Curtain on Information. Nobody was selling him anything, published reports state that this had been going on for decades. It is a very simple, and not at all concealed propogation of the same idea that a Second Grader would be unable to grasp the concept that a modeling of the world by a paper or whatever it was globe required display of shock, a display that for legitimation of my position by display of fairness positions me to reveal the fairness, stability and composure with which the licensed administrator of the school conducted himself when confronted with this capability by me.

It is exactly the same as another moment, a moment that must remain buried. Reactor couplings in the human soul cannot deal with revealatory regulation, only concealment regulation, by Iron & Steel, Vendors of Information in Total Lockdown Hammerkits.

It's not that Aspies aren't interested in information, just as you cannot say that Engineers have no interest in organo-chlorides. It's more a matter of not wanting to be in the same position as the Brothers in Cold Slab Bank who were receiving their instruction from Good and Decent Normals in the movie Bottle Rocket.

Aspies identify internals, and are forced to display alliance with TV shows such as Star Trek, in which the heroes investigate the culture of normal people for training of Aspies.

Aspies have to watch this because there is nothing else on COMSAT. William Telman displays the penetrating nature of that training. It as well totally eliminated the Neanderthal Security Model, elucidated as take care of yourself first. It eradicated this security model by sheer numbers. I don't think the Aspies were carried as an ancillary, I position myself that the Aspies are the descendents of the original anthropomorphization of mammalian forms.

As a relaxation, I am going to give you an opening. In discovery, for my nexus here, I google and find Do Horses Gallop in Their Sleep? By Matt Cartmill I am going to break off and go about my daily duties to my primary project and leave you to work this without me having read the treatise. I can tell from the abstract that this worker in our science is going tera-incognita where no normal can follow. I will give you the weight of me subscribing the article without having read it.

Very dicey. I have invested great effort to attain a reputation for exactly this level of nuance-splitting an welcome your work here in the Mesosphere.

You didn't reverse anything, you just gave me some room to work. I doub't General Spitzer would have circled the cowboy in fuzzy pants.

Bear in mind the FISA courts have read the popular courts opinion that internet traffic is not in general subject to the same protections as traditional telco.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Originally posted by Nicholas Jordan:
...
Does anyone care to explain the joke to me?
William Telman
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 17
Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
Does anyone care to explain the joke to me?


Only geeks can. Count me out
Stuart Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 54
Is it becuase we find songs like this cool?

The song is called Hatless Atlas and it goes like this.
Sung to the theme of twinkle twinkle litte star, well I thaught it was cool anyways =P

^ < @ < . @ *
Hat less at less point at star,

} " _ # |
backbrace double base pound space bar.

- @ $ & / _ %
Dash at cash and slash base rate,

!( @ | = >
wow open tab at bar is great.

; ' + $ ? ^?
Semi backquote plus cash huh DEL,

, # " ~ | ) ^G
comma pound double tilde bar close BEL.


Dale Carnegie:<br />"Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished<br />by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all."
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

Originally posted by Frank Silbermann:
... Does anyone care to explain the joke to me?

I can only explain this sort of thing when I'm wearing my (blue) Star Trek uniform. At the moment, I'm wearing a Planet of the Apes costume. I don't know why.
William Telman
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 28, 2008
Posts: 17
Cool "Reverse Psychology"
Nicholas Jordan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 17, 2006
Posts: 1282
Originally posted by marc weber:
I can only explain this sort of thing when I'm wearing my (blue) Star Trek uniform. At the moment, I'm wearing a Planet of the Apes costume. I don't know why.


Aw, cm'on marc, i thought you would front for me a while. I will explain it to Fred.

First off, I don't see where I need to explain a joke. Your work was master craft at the central issue. I will really, really simplifiy it so that you can see it is no joke. Physicists label this spooky action at a distance, it is documented and known science. What I did was take your work seriously, and tried to gain some momentum or take some toehold with the idea by counter-claiming ( speculatively ) that geeks were or are a representative population for what should be a natural and normal skillset.

This skillset is dramatized in normals under stress, someone will exclaim "I know what he/she is thinking!" It has a charactaristic tone and style of delivery. I was trying to dislodge some of the 'in a stable unchanging environment it is more efficient to be normal'

I find that geeks, as a definable population, exhibit a greater prevalance of ability to do non-verbal communication. If body gestures or something is involved, then that is not non-verbal, a verb in some way or another uses motion of the body ( speech, positioning or otherwise ) to convey mood, tone, demeanor or meaning. Non-verbal communication is by definition mind-link.

In thinking about this I noted that the Wiki work suggests that there are entire histories of human and human-like anthropoids that are totally absent in any add-up of genomics. Major chunks, square peg in round hole type misfits in the overview of the data. I find that total refutal of something as simple as Time-Dialation is a .... I don't know what words to use. Your work here is professional. The only sane response is to accuse the normals of being "compliant, and fearful of disclosure for their shallow (...perception...)" and claim that "they maintain an impoverished show of force" ( to retian their position ) and took a cheap swipe by claiming "...preferring Brain-Dialation so that non-compliance with strict normalcy is met with swift and total annihilation of all thought."

I had the hope that this provocation might somehow penetrate the weak force of their grasp of the void and elicit enough response to gain interlocution. It is somewhat like the subltle clue marc helped us with here, showing that at best our civilization exhibits Rhesus Macaque Large Scale Socialization, lacking the potential for Direct Mind Link by Time-Dialation. It is noteworthy for forward effectiveness that conventional simian human-think limits the percievable to what is called a light-cone.

Reducing three dimensions to one and taking y axis to be time, it is patiently explained that one cannot perceive beyond speed of light times time. Just another Brain-Dialation. Did you see the 4 year old on tv this week who played drums with world-class bands? That is what I am talking about. That is normal. ( or should be ) That is the point I am trying to make. I'm sure marc's lava lamp will guide us in our journey.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

I sit under an AC vent, so I am always cool


SCJP 6 articles - SCJP 5/6 mock exams - More SCJP Mocks
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: Why are most programmers uncool?