All of the original Storm Troopers were loyal troops created by the cloning of Jango Fett. Ignoring the initial jobs lost when they initially came in (as I understand there was no standing army, but there would still be a number of security positions lost). Therefore I believe 100% of the government security positions would have been transfered to the clones.
Were the Episode 4+ Storm Troopers the same clones (nearing their pension), did they continue producing loyal clones to maintain the work force, or did they bring in the 'rank and file' ie recruit from the population?
I know they're "clones", but I always figured they were GMO clones, enhanced in various ways; for example (among other things) they could live longer, and also keep that armor on 24/7 without going nuts.
Originally posted by Bear Bibeault: I wish I could unsee episodes I through III.
I'm with you. Maybe one day, LucasFilms will allow someone else to re-write and re-do the "clone wars" prequels and get real actors.I mean there are things in the prequels that make the later episodes not make sense.
I always assumed clone wars meant they made evil clones of some jedis and that people really fought the war, and not robots versus clones.
Corroboration: "Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper?"
While that may be considered evidence, it's hardly definitive. It's entirely possible this just means that troopers are generally adults, and a gawky punk kid like Luke was still a bit short of the average height for an adult trooper. In practice, Mark Hamill was about 26 during the filming of Star Wars. But he was supposed to be a teenager. I really think that's all Lucas meant by the line at the time.
Quoth Wikipedia:
"In order to reconcile this, George Lucas himself, as cited in a question and answer article of Star Wars Insider in 2005, stated that not all Stormtroopers are clones as a result of volunteers and conscription. He also said the clones themselves are not all clones of Jango whether out of necessity or political "rewards" for finding favor with the Emperor. So it is possible that there would be a mix of Jango clones, citizens within the Empire, and various clones of political appointees."
Well, in this case, I only partially agree. IMHO, I believe that the writing was so bad, that no actor could have save it. Natialie Portman is probably high on my favs list, yet Queen Amidala was just a vacant "going through the motions" type of character.
While the sins of I through III are vast, reducing the Force from a mystical aura to a viral infection is what ruined it for me.
Oh, and a flying R2D2?
Pat Farrell
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Originally posted by Mark Spritzler: Maybe one day, LucasFilms will allow someone else to re-write and re-do the "clone wars" prequels and get real actors.
Won't happen while George Lucas is alive. He wanted that acting style. Natalie Portman is a very serious actor, but you would never know.
Lucas boxed himself into a corner. He never wrote any of the scripts before they were filming. His claim to have "nine parts" and Star Wars was #4 was pure fiction. He had not decided that Darth was Luke's father until Strikes Back was half finished.
Originally posted by Bear Bibeault: While the sins of I through III are vast, reducing the Force from a mystical aura to a viral infection is what ruined it for me.
This was my tipping point, too.
The force was a mystical type of calling, something that was just felt, like a faith or a knowing. Then to find out you could do a blood test? Really killed the mystical and almost religious type calling of a Jedi.
He had not decided that Darth was Luke's father until Strikes Back was half finished.
From the first episode:
Luke's Aunt: "He's just like his father." Uncle Owen: "That's what I'm afraid of."
That was a pretty big hint, right from episode 1. There was no reason or context to have that in there other than foreshadowing.
Also, when you see Luke locked in his room with the droids, playing with 'airplaned', the plane he is playing with it Darth Vaders diplomatic craft, another big hint, right in the first (4th) episode.
As far as clones go, I'm not sure if they all have to be the same height. Surely environmental conditions could have an effect on height. Not even identical twins are exactly the same height. Surely even clone biology would have to allow for a certain standard deviation from the mean.
Luke's Aunt: "He's just like his father." Uncle Owen: "That's what I'm afraid of."
That was a pretty big hint, right from episode 1. There was no reason or context to have that in there other than foreshadowing.
I disagree - if we assume Lucas had no plan for Vader to be the father, then it's pretty easy to read that scene as Beru and Owen worrying that Luke was like his father in the sense that he was apt to go off and have adventures that would get him killed.
[CWMK]: Also, when you see Luke locked in his room with the droids, playing with 'airplaned', the plane he is playing with it Darth Vaders diplomatic craft, another big hint, right in the first (4th) episode.
What "diplomatic craft" are you referring to?
Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper
The toy you see Skywalker fixated with is what I believe to be the Imperial Landing Craft you see Vader emerge from later on in the movie.
if we assume Lucas had no plan for Vader to be the father
Well, the whole problem with assumptions...
Thing is, we're probably both right.
When Lucas talks, he just talks off the cuff, and you can tell that he can't even remember what he was thinking at certain points.
The real truth is probably that in 1972, he had the idea that Vader was Luke's father. In 1973, he forgot he had that idea because he changed it. Then he remembered it. Then he went back to it in '74. Then he abandoned it in '75. Then he went back to it again, and then.....
When Lucas speaks, he always contradicts himself in his time lines and stuff. It's not intentional. I just think he has loads of ideas, and I doubt he'd ever anticipated that he'd have to be able to recount his creative process as though everything he said was going to be cross-examined as though it were in a courtroom proceeding.
Another impression I have: Lucas often says things like "I never saw it going this way" to make himself look like more of a creative genius than he really is. Kinda the screen-writing equivalent of Scotty from Star-Trek.
I think the signs were all there. But I won't begrudge you for thinking the opposite.
Cameron- actually I agree that Lucas had this idea (and others) floating around among many others in his mind well before the first movie came out. His plans changed numerous times along the way, and his statements now about what his intent was back then really can't be trusted. But I was just disagreeing with your statement that "there was no reason or context to have that in other than foreshadowing". I'm saying there was a fairly straightforward reason to have it in, that had nothing to do with Vader being Luke's father. Whether or not that was actually Lucas' reason at the time, we may never really know.
Still wondering about your diplomatic craft comment though. I don't have my DVDs around currently to verify what the model looks like. I was thinking it looked like a small model of the vehicle sitting in the garage, evidently under repair. This is generally thought to be the T-16 that Luke says he used to "bullseye womp rats" back home. It's appeared more explicitly in later "extended universe" stuff, e.g. here. This craft also looks similar to the Imperial shuttle later used by the Emperor, Vader, and the rebels - is that what you meant by a "diplomatic craft"? But that vehicle didn't appear until Empire, the second film. It's hardly meaningful foreshadowing in the first film when the Imperial shuttle didn't even exist yet.
Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper
It's hardly meaningful foreshadowing in the first film when the Imperial shuttle didn't even exist yet.
Or maybe, that makes it even MORE meaningful foreshadowing!
"You may be the hottest bush pilot this side of Mos Eisley, Luke, but those little skyhoppers can be dangerous. They move awfully fast for tropospheric craft�faster than they need to. Keep playing engine jockey with one and someday, whammo! You're going to be nothing more than a dark spot on the damp side of a canyon wall."
Yes, I believe that's the one Luke is playing around with, waving it in the air with his arms. I can see that I'm in over my head with regards to Star Wars trivia, so I'm going to cut my losses on the topic right now. Besides, I think we've hijacked the thread sufficiently.
Have you seen my book "Pickering is Springfield?" Perhaps I should send you a complimentary copy. It'll give you a much greater appreciation for the importance I place on subtle references and symbolism.
"In order to reconcile this, George Lucas himself, as cited in a question and answer article of Star Wars Insider in 2005, stated that not all Stormtroopers are clones as a result of volunteers and conscription. He also said the clones themselves are not all clones of Jango whether out of necessity or political "rewards" for finding favor with the Emperor. So it is possible that there would be a mix of Jango clones, citizens within the Empire, and various clones of political appointees."
What interesting about this is the fact that this is after fans began speculating that all the storm troopers beginning with E IV were clones. If fans had said they weren't all clones, Luc-ass probably would have said they were all clones of Jango. He never would let anyone write about the clone wars over all the years giving a bit of post E VI creative freedom to several authors.
I just remember having this conversation with a friend of mine who is the biggest SW fan I know right after E II came out. He can recite serial numbers from space crafts. :roll:
[Cameron]: Have you seen my book "Pickering is Springfield?" Perhaps I should send you a complimentary copy. It'll give you a much greater appreciation for the importance I place on subtle references and symbolism.
No, I confess I overlooked that one at my local bookstore. I suspect it may be unjustly under-promoted outside of, well, Pickering. So... you've got a lot of saguaro cactus around Pickering, do you? Still, I am intrigued, and I'm interested in checking this out.
Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper
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I can see that I'm in over my head with regards to Star Wars trivia, so I'm going to cut my losses on the topic right now. Besides, I think we've hijacked the thread sufficiently. 
