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Why do some people think that SCJP is just Mugging up?

Abhijeet Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 05, 2009
Posts: 33
I have noticed that some of my fellow ranchers especially Non-Indians consider SCJP as just some mug-up-get-passed exam.
They just want to clear SCJP so that they can appear for other certs.
I don't think it should be like that. SCJP is quite a difficult exam and just mugging-up is not enough.


I am the one who knows that I don't know anything.
Abhijeet
Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 26, 2006
Posts: 4968
    
    1

Don't ever let other people's negative opinions discourage you.

It is a well respected certification. There will be detractors, and there will be proponents. It's a good thing to have.

-Cameron McKenzie
Jason Irwin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Posts: 327
The SCJP could well just be "mugging up" to a working Java professional, and as it is a mandatory requirement for the later exams they may well just see it as a hoop they need to jump through (although they would be short-sighted to think that way). With experience under their belt, they do not need the SCJP to prove ability or that they are a good programmer (not that passing the SCJP is any guarantee of being a good programmer).

To someone trying to enter the IT field, the SCJP would be more important as they cannot point to years of experience. For them the SCJP would show an ability to learn, achieve goals and that they have at least a basic understanding of syntax and behaviours.

If you asked a person who cheated at the exam their opinion, they may well see it as worthless; for them it was. They brute-force memorised a bunch of answers and gained nothing from it. They then discovered that they were still poor programmers and blamed the exam, rather than their own inability to apply themselves and further their abilities.

So it really would depend on the context of the person answering the question.

Personally I don't see the SCJP being worth anything to me, but the studying for it...ah, well...that has certainly been worth it; passing will just be the icing on the cake.


SCJP6
Abhijeet Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 05, 2009
Posts: 33
Yeah you both are right. But such people should keep their opinions to themselves.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18836
    
  40

Abhijeet Pathak wrote:Yeah you both are right. But such people should keep their opinions to themselves.


Why? it's a perfectly valid opinion -- just because you don't agree doesn't invalidate it.

I have encountered many SCJPs during interviews, and quite frankly, some could not tell you the difference between an int and float. The point is, just because I don't value the SCJP document during the interview, doesn't mean I don't value the SCJP skills -- in fact, I will respect it, by actually challenging the obscure points that many developers may not encounter, but I know that an SCJP tests for.

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
Joe Deluca
Greenhorn

Joined: Jan 29, 2009
Posts: 14
Jason Irwin wrote:Personally I don't see the SCJP being worth anything to me, but the studying for it...ah, well...that has certainly been worth it; passing will just be the icing on the cake.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


SCJP 6
Lucas Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 20, 2009
Posts: 804
    
    1

Jason has the same approach to SCJP as me


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Aurelian Tutuianu
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 86
I have no certification in IT. But that does not mean that certifications are meaningless. Sun certifications are more valuable that MS ones, they tend to be more difficult. Still, when I interview somebody I search for one thing, which I consider most valuable thing.
I provoke the person to speak on some technical matter. If I don't found passion and independent thinking, all certifications on the world are zero in that case.
A certification gives you a chance to learn methodically and attention all the aspects covered by an exam. Whether or not that opportunity is materialized must be always verified.


http://javasign.blogspot.com/
Abhijeet Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 05, 2009
Posts: 33
You all tell me who will you select for a job:
A:People with certificate.
B:People without certificate.

If I don't found passion and independent thinking, all certifications on the world are zero in that case.

its by rancher Aurelian Tutuianu

Certificate and Passion come in package.
You cannot have a certificate without passion and certificate is important as it shows your passion.

Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18836
    
  40

You all tell me who will you select for a job:
A:People with certificate.
B:People without certificate.


Well, quite frankly, it doesn't work that way.

Someone with a certificate may have a better chance at getting an interview... but... I don't think anyone will hire, or not hire, based on the certificate (or lack of).

There are other factors... and once you arrive at the interview, the certificate itself is useless (as mentioned, it will be the SCJP skills that you need for the interview -- not the paper).

Henry
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18836
    
  40

You cannot have a certificate without passion and certificate is important as it shows your passion.


Having interviewed a few candidates (including SCJP holders), I can say that this is definitely not true.

Henry
Abhijeet Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 05, 2009
Posts: 33
Someone with a certificate may have a better chance at getting an interview... but... I don't think anyone will hire, or not hire, based on the certificate (or lack of).


Well that proves my point.
If you have certificate atleast your employer will test you for SCJP skills. Otherwise he may just kick you out (atleast in this times of recession).
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61209
    
  66

As is usual, generalities are usually wrong.

For me, and for all organizations that I've worked for in the past decade, whether a resume lists certifications or not is completely moot with regards to whether they get an interview in the first place, what will be asked during an interview, or how answers are evaluated.

In essence, they're a complete no-op.

I think certs are great for setting personal goals and milestones, but in my experience, they aren't a factor in the hiring process.


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Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18836
    
  40

Abhijeet Pathak wrote:
Well that proves my point.
If you have certificate atleast your employer will test you for SCJP skills. Otherwise he may just kick you out (atleast in this times of recession).


Sorry, but how does a statement that says that you may have a better chance at a job interview -- followed by another statement that in the end, it is your skills that count and not the cert.... prove your point, and conclude that you may get fired if you are not a SCJP...

Henry
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18836
    
  40

In essence, they're a complete no-op.

I think certs are great for setting personal goals and milestones, but in my experience, they aren't a factor in the hiring process.


I have to agree with this... but tend to not say it anymore... as I have learned that many here are sensitive when I say that a SCJP cert does get much (okay zero) weight with me (even in getting the interview). On the other hand, it might better get them pass HR to me.

Henry

Jason Irwin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Posts: 327
Henry Wong wrote:I have learned that many here are sensitive when I say that a SCJP cert does get much (okay zero) weight with me (even in getting the interview). On the other hand, it might better get them pass HR to me.

Bingo. It's boxes ticked and extra points with recruiters and HR and thus you are more likely to get your CV in front of someone who is wanting to hire.

I guess in a dead heat with someone else for a single position it might just be a factor.
Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 30537
    
150

Abhijeet Pathak wrote:Certificate and Passion come in package.
You cannot have a certificate without passion and certificate is important as it shows your passion.

No they don't. Some schools/Java shops require getting a certification. If it's mandatory, how much passion could it show.


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Bert Bates
author
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Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8815
    
    5
I can share a perspective from the exam's creators.

We hope that when someone studies for the exam and passes it without cheating they will be well prepared to write Java code on the job. Will they be experts? No, of course not. On the other hand, they WILL have been exposed to a fairly wide range of Java fundamentals and APIs that will, we hope, point them in the direction of using Java the way it was intended.

I guess the bottom line is that sooner or later you're going to have to write some actual code on the job


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Abhijeet Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 05, 2009
Posts: 33
I too will give a rest to this topic.

I know exactly for what I am studying Java as well as SCJP.
Sudeepa Basu
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 06, 2008
Posts: 62
One trait that i feel totally gets reflected in a certified professional is "being Self Generative" a certified person to me is someone upto growth and is self driven. As it is very easy to not take a certification and give up as job can still be maintained.

but the one who takes it for sure demonstraits this traint


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Freddy Wong
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 11, 2006
Posts: 959

It was the preparation of SCJP that has made my interest in Java (and also other languages) go huge. I started reading a lot of technical news, blogs and books since then. I've also learned all sorta different things. Will I go for another certification? Probably, yes, probably not. Even though my signature says I'm preparing for another certification, it's mainly for me to keep myself busy, and it's got nothing to do with getting a better job because I know that certification without any actual experience is worthless. Now I prefer to do the actual coding and hopefully to contribute to some open source communities someday rather than aiming for certifications.

And I have to agree with Bert. SCJP won't make you an expert.


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Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6661
    
    5

hehe ! The old 'is the SCJP worth it' zombie has woken up.

Despite being a SCJP myself, my views mirror Henry's. I give zero weight to certifications during an interview. What an interviewer tests you with, however, will be relevant to what you study for to pass the SCJP. If you passed the SCJP by yourself you should have no problem answering core java interview questions


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Mo Jay
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 16, 2009
Posts: 83
I think that this topic and hence this thread should not have been started in the first place because it is useless and leading nowhere but to an endless loop.
Everyone has his take about this topic and taking SCJP means different things to different people, nobody's point will emerge as the right/correct point.

I will not share my point or motives regarding SCJP because they mean nothing to everyone else, thus I will go on and keep investing my time doing what I think matters to me instead of wasting it on a topic that is relative with no definite answer.



 
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