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Expectation for 12 years Experience

sriram sankar
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Joined: Feb 26, 2008
Posts: 43
Hi guys,

What will be the growth chart for a Java Professional with this experience ( in USA).

1) Tech Lead./ Lead Developer.
2) Senior Developer
3) Senior Programmer Analyst with More Pay
4) Senior Architect.
5) Project Manager.

Thanks
sriram

SCJP 1.5 , SCBCD 5.0, SCEA 5.0
Joe Harry
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Joined: Sep 26, 2006
Posts: 9383
    
    2

If I were to be in this situation, I would say for a pure technical path - Senior Architect and for a mixed path (technical & management) - Project Manager.


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sriram sankar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2008
Posts: 43
Thanks for your reply..

Does this hold good for both consulting/full time positions?
Luke Kolin
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
sriram sankar wrote:What will be the growth chart for a Java Professional with this experience ( in USA).

1) Tech Lead./ Lead Developer.
2) Senior Developer
3) Senior Programmer Analyst with More Pay
4) Senior Architect.
5) Project Manager.


All are possible.

Cheers!

Luke
sriram sankar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2008
Posts: 43
Yep thats true, but my question was what would be the ideal path!!!
Luke Kolin
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
sriram sankar wrote:Yep thats true, but my question was what would be the ideal path!!!


Only you can answer that question. What do you want to do?

Cheers!

Luke
sriram sankar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2008
Posts: 43
Working as a Tech Lead, and getting an interview for Sr Programmer Analyst from a big company . Thinking is it worth . Also everyone wants to be an Architect? I assume most of my friends call themselves architect don't know how far it is true in real world. Thats why i posted this question to see only i am lagging behind others
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16065
    
  21

sriram sankar wrote:Also everyone wants to be an Architect?


Well, in my town, "architect" now simply means "Developer who's not located overseas". My (more traditional) definition of architect, would require no more than a handful for even a moderately-large company, and for smaller companies, only 1 architect. The new "architects" are bulk-recruited in lots of 12.


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
Joe Harry
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Joined: Sep 26, 2006
Posts: 9383
    
    2

Tim Holloway wrote:
sriram sankar wrote:Also everyone wants to be an Architect?


Well, in my town, "architect" now simply means "Developer who's not located overseas". My (more traditional) definition of architect, would require no more than a handful for even a moderately-large company, and for smaller companies, only 1 architect. The new "architects" are bulk-recruited in lots of 12.


But from my perspective an Architect should also be a developer. A developer much more than the average developer who only knows just the one way of implementing x+y. However an architect proposes a different approach and justifies the best approach. From my experience working with the architects so far, I know many of them who has around 25 years of coding experience in C++ and Java and even from then they could not completely define the alternativies with justifications. I presume this because of the multitude of technologies that we have and it takes quite a while to master in one of them and by the time you are there is another one out in the market. So as Tim mentioned, it would soon be like "architect" now simply means "Developer.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4658
    
    5

Jothi Shankar Kumar wrote:But from my perspective an Architect should also be a developer.


The IT industry has taken over and destroyed the meaning of the word "architect" which was well defined for at least a century, and which was an important title back into the middle ages.

An architect is one who designs a building.

A system is not something that an IT Architect "architects", its a noun, not a verb.

What it seems to mean in the IT world these days is "senior developer" or maybe "Experiened old dude"

More to the point, this thread has conflated a number of ideas. There is no requirement that a valuable engineer has to move into "management" to be well regarded and well paid. Often, the skills that make a great engineer are not what you need in a manager. Often the promotion of a great engineer into management yields a mediocre manager with a team that is missing the great developer.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
Marshal

Joined: Jan 10, 2002
Posts: 61221
    
  66

Pat Farrell wrote:... or maybe "Experiened old dude"

Now I need to get my business card changed!

Often, the skills that make a great engineer are not what you need in a manager.

I'd pretty much substitute "almost always" for "often".

Often the promotion of a great engineer into management yields a mediocre manager with a team that is missing the great developer.

Again, replace "often" with "always, except for the three times in history this hasn't happened".


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Pat Farrell
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Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4658
    
    5

Bear Bibeault wrote:Again, replace "often" with "always, except for the three times in history this hasn't happened".

Its happened three times? Wow, I've only heard of it in stories passed down, stories of ancient times.

I was a senior developer into the early 1980s, and then got promoted into management. I got a push into grad school when the First Bush Gulf war started, and while I was there, I discovered that I was really a lot better as a developer/designer than as a manager, and that I was a ton happier slinging code than arguing with clients on why their change will set the project back six months.

So I stopped pretending that the Management track was for me. It meant that I had to leave the mega thousand man International Consulting company that was paying me a lot of money. I went to startups, and have loved it for 15 years. But in no year in the past 15 have I had as much salary as I did regularly when I was at GiantConsultingCompany.

This not to say that everyone should follow my lead, but I completely reject the idea that the only way to advance is to move into management. If your company says that and you feel its a bad fit, leave the company!
Collin Dugas
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Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Posts: 91
Tim Holloway wrote:
Well, in my town, "architect" now simply means "Developer who's not located overseas". My (more traditional) definition of architect, would require no more than a handful for even a moderately-large company, and for smaller companies, only 1 architect. The new "architects" are bulk-recruited in lots of 12.

Agreed, but isn't there a criteria for becoming an architect, like being able to understand the technology, or design a system or something, rather than being something like only a handful for a mid-large company. It doesnt tell me anything about what they are supposed to do.

Pat Farrell wrote:
What it seems to mean in the IT world these days is "senior developer" or maybe "Experiened old dude"

Again, I am still a person with comparatively little experience, but being termed a senior developer or experienced old dude after 10 years in IT not mean that he has not progressed into the next role ? Will it not raise questions on his ability or make him feel he is stuck in the same position for too long?


I am asking these since I have been pondering over what to do next? I love both technical and managerial aspects of my job equally and luckily am good at both. Over the years , I'd love to get a few promotions (change in business card titles) and make few bucks if I can. Will I not be stuck as a experienced old dude if choose to stay on the technical side?
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4658
    
    5

Collin Dugas wrote:Again, I am still a person with comparatively little experience, but being termed a senior developer or experienced old dude after 10 years in IT not mean that he has not progressed into the next role ?


This gets to a fundamental philosophical question. A boss of mine long time ago used to ask:

Does he have ten years of progressive experience, or does he have ten years of repeating the one year experience?

Clearly if its the latter, you have not progressed. If its the former, then clearly the "old experienced dude" has progressed.

One can still ask if the progression was fast enough, or sufficient enough, or perhaps traveled enough, and these are key questions.

I don't think there is one "right" answer to this. But I can say that its much better to be doing different things, using different tools. I think ten years of using one language, say Java is much smaller than three years of professional use of three widely different languages, such as Perl, Java and Python.

Similarly, I think ten years of using one DBMS, say Oracle, is less than three sets of years using Oracle, Ingress, Informix, PostGress, MySql, etc.

 
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subject: Expectation for 12 years Experience