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I'm so frustrated and fear for my future

Prabu Raj
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 15, 2009
Posts: 2
Dear All,

I completed my BE (MECH) in 2003 and continued my career in the same field for 2 years. Due to my family circumstances I shifted my career to Marketing, Call centre, BPO, and now working as a customer support executive for lower salary.
2 years – Mechanical field
5 years _ Marketing, Call centre, BPO,
I have now realized that I have made stupid decisions in my career. Now I am studying java on my own through head first java book. Is it possible for me to switch to Java, J2EE as a fresher programming job?
What skills should a java developer have?
Java Certification helps to get a job??

Please advice
Rohan kanade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 22, 2009
Posts: 106
Why don't you use the education you took for 4 years while doing Mechanical engineering? and apply to Companies which work in the Mechanical/Automobile/Production & Manufacturing field's?

As far as becoming a java coder is concerned, Just being a java coder wont take you far, because most programmers have gone through the theoretical computer science curriculum which equips them with the ability to be more than just coders.

Even though if you want to find job in java programming, I suggest you do a combination of the below things.

1) Learn to code in Java Standard Edition. write a lot of code in general, just for the sake of getting used to Java, and dont use any IDE(like Eclipse or Netbeans) just write code using text editors.
and simultaneously study for the SCJP certification(details for books available in FAQ on this site).

2) After completing SCJP bump this topic , or make another topic, your further queries will be answered.


SCJP 1.6 ,SCWCD 5
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Rohan kanade wrote:Why don't you use the education you took for 4 years while doing Mechanical engineering? and apply to Companies which work in the Mechanical/Automobile/Production & Manufacturing field's?

Simple answer is he doesn't want to do it.

Prabu Raj wrote:Is it possible for me to switch to Java, J2EE as a fresher programming job?

Hi Prabhu,
Yes, certainly possible. You have good qualification. In fact the decision you made to learn on your own is better than learning it from institute. It will take little more time but what you will learn is better than institute. I would suggest do not do full time learning of Java. Do it in free time and in parallel continue whatever job you have in hand.

First forget that you did mistake in working in call centers, marketing etc. It will not go waste. It will be useful to you after few years of programming job, you may want to move into management. So this experience will certainly help you for your communication and peoples' management. So do not worry. It will not go waste.

So learn Java, try for SCJP, one certification is enough. Then learn JSP,Servlets, one framework. In parallel keep looking programming job. Even if you get chance to contribute in open source projects if it is possible for you, go ahead and contribute. That will give you real experience. Also in parallel you will have to learn some database, little html, xml.

Make use of forums to get guidance or any technical difficulty.


Sandeep
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Rohan kanade wrote:As far as becoming a java coder is concerned, Just being a java coder wont take you far, because most programmers have gone through the theoretical computer science curriculum which equips them with the ability to be more than just coders.

I don't quite agree with this. I'm a Mechanical Engineering graduate and have been working in the software industry for about 4 years doing Java/JEE development in one of the big 3 companies in the Indian IT space. And, my first manager at my first Java job was a commerce graduate, working as a Java/JEE Technical Manager.
Seetharaman Venkatasamy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2008
Posts: 5575

Pushkar Choudhary wrote:
Rohan kanade wrote:As far as becoming a java coder is concerned, Just being a java coder wont take you far, because most programmers have gone through the theoretical computer science curriculum which equips them with the ability to be more than just coders.

I don't quite agree with this. I'm a Mechanical Engineering graduate and have been working in the software industry for about 4 years doing Java/JEE development in one of the big 3 companies in the Indian IT space. And, my first manager at my first Java job was a commerce graduate, working as a Java/JEE Technical Manager.


Rohan is not talking about "from what back-ground you are coming from?" . He suggest that "studying the computer science concept would be helpful to his future". yes, you also require that . what ever back ground you are from doesnt matter , but if you dont have some thing, you need to study/gain . you may came from Mechanical engineering but, you learnt something about computer right?
Rohan kanade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 22, 2009
Posts: 106
Pushkar Choudhary wrote:
Rohan kanade wrote:As far as becoming a java coder is concerned, Just being a java coder wont take you far, because most programmers have gone through the theoretical computer science curriculum which equips them with the ability to be more than just coders.

I don't quite agree with this. I'm a Mechanical Engineering graduate and have been working in the software industry for about 4 years doing Java/JEE development in one of the big 3 companies in the Indian IT space. And, my first manager at my first Java job was a commerce graduate, working as a Java/JEE Technical Manager.


Indian IT space does not represent computer science at all, As far as I know, Indian IT space just cares about the billing rate and the number of employees getting wages per hour.

Java/J2ee is not even 1% of computer science, it is just a programming language which is easy to learn,And that is exactly why 90% of the people in the Indian IT space are either programmers with 5-10 years experience in Java/J2EE and know all the three letter frameworks written for it using SOA and other state of the art service oriented architecture to deliver cutting edge services n all.

look buddy, computer science is a huge field , you need to start reading about combinatorics , probability, algorithm design and analysis, design patterns (not J2EE).

anyone who wants to call themselves a programmer should know the above concepts , or else he is just a CODE MONKEY.
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

Rohan is not talking about "from what back-ground you are coming from?"


I am not sure if that is what Rohan meant to imply

Just being a java coder wont take you far, because most programmers have gone through the theoretical computer science curriculum which equips them with the ability to be more than just coders.


For the record a CS graduate once asked me how to use a for loop because she "forgot". Just saying.

To answer Prabu's question though, certificates and degrees do help. But skill is something that is valued more. Some companies do rank salaries / positions based on the college you are from and the degree that you acquired. Keep these in mind when you take a decision.

[EDIT]

Quoting for added clarity


SCJP 6 articles - SCJP 5/6 mock exams - More SCJP Mocks
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

As a side note, the discussion is gravitating towards an argument about CS graduates Vs No knowledge in theoretical computer science and is starting to become unfriendly. Just a reminder to be nice.
Rohan kanade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 22, 2009
Posts: 106
Deepak Bala wrote:I am not sure if that is what Rohan meant to imply

Just being a java coder wont take you far, because most programmers have gone through the theoretical computer science curriculum which equips them with the ability to be more than just coders.


For the record a CS graduate once asked me how to use a for loop because she "forgot". Just saying.



such kinda people exist in every domain. If one just wants to be a java coder, fine, i dont have any problems with that, its his choice, but thinking that just knowing java will take you to great heights in the computer science and Software Industry is absurd.

there is a difference between a mechanic and a automobile engineer. same applies to a java coder and a computer science graduate
Deepak Bala
Bartender

Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 6662
    
    5

there is a difference between a mechanic and a automobile engineer. same applies to a java coder and a computer science graduate




So 'java coders' are derogatory versions of what CS graduates should have been ? How did you assume that java coders need not know algorithms / design patterns / permutations ?
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Seetharaman Venkatasamy wrote:He suggest that "studying the computer science concept would be helpful to his future". yes, you also require that . what ever back ground you are from doesnt matter , but if you dont have some thing, you need to study/gain . you may came from Mechanical engineering but, you learnt something about computer right?

Yes, I did learn programming. And I also agree that if you are from Computer Science background, it would be helpful. I only didn't agree with this:
Rohan kanade wrote:As far as becoming a java coder is concerned, Just being a java coder wont take you far
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Deepak Bala wrote:
For the record a CS graduate once asked me how to use a for loop because she "forgot". Just saying.

Exactly. And I've seen final year computer engineering students who didn't know their desktop hard disk size and didn't know a way to check it!!
Pushkar Choudhary
Rancher

Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 425

Rohan kanade wrote:Indian IT space does not represent computer science at all, As far as I know, Indian IT space just cares about the billing rate and the number of employees getting wages per hour.

Java/J2ee is not even 1% of computer science, it is just a programming language which is easy to learn,And that is exactly why 90% of the people in the Indian IT space are either programmers with 5-10 years experience in Java/J2EE and know all the three letter frameworks written for it using SOA and other state of the art service oriented architecture to deliver cutting edge services n all.

This looks very much like an assumption. Do you have any data for backing this assumption?
Rohan kanade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 22, 2009
Posts: 106
Pushkar Choudhary wrote:
Rohan kanade wrote:Indian IT space does not represent computer science at all, As far as I know, Indian IT space just cares about the billing rate and the number of employees getting wages per hour.

Java/J2ee is not even 1% of computer science, it is just a programming language which is easy to learn,And that is exactly why 90% of the people in the Indian IT space are either programmers with 5-10 years experience in Java/J2EE and know all the three letter frameworks written for it using SOA and other state of the art service oriented architecture to deliver cutting edge services n all.

This looks very much like an assumption. Do you have any data for backing this assumption?


One programming language and its framework is not computer science. you need to check out computer science curriculum of some real university to know what computer science is. Not trade schools which conduct 6 months hack training courses in Java, .Net and php and all.


Pushkar Choudhary wrote:
Deepak Bala wrote:
For the record a CS graduate once asked me how to use a for loop because she "forgot". Just saying.

Exactly. And I've seen final year computer engineering students who didn't know their desktop hard disk size and didn't know a way to check it!!

What does this sentence imply? there are mediocre people in every domain, and Since India being a country with more than a billion people, the probability of you coming across a mediocre CS grad is more.



Deepak Bala wrote:
there is a difference between a mechanic and a automobile engineer. same applies to a java coder and a computer science graduate




So 'java coders' are derogatory versions of what CS graduates should have been ? How did you assume that java coders need not know algorithms / design patterns / permutations ?

i did not mean that mechanic is a derogatory version of an automobile engineer, nor did i mean java coder is a derogatory version of a CS grad,
what i meant was, the kind of work done by a mechanic in the automobile world is exactly the same a non CS grad java coder is doing.
Seetharaman Venkatasamy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2008
Posts: 5575

Rohan kanade wrote:what i meant was, the kind of work done by a mechanic in the automobile world is exactly the same a non CS grad java coder is doing.


So Dear Rohan, non-computer science gratuates cant code ? or not able to understand the concept? . I am a computer science gratuate , but during college days I didnt know anything . still I am improving my basics . Infact I started reading computer books after my college
Tejas Prathamesh
Greenhorn

Joined: Jun 21, 2007
Posts: 26
Agree with you Rohan - you are spot on. I think it is important understand that programming itself is agnostic of any language (implementations) and Java or any other language for that matter is just a way of implementing a solution. Thus it is important to understand Theoretical computer science - Turing machines, sorting and searching algorithms, complexity of loops in terms of time and space etc etc etc. Joachim Rohde's post in this thread echoes the same point.

However, most of the service sector biggies in India mostly need people who can deliver workable code - not neccessarily caring about quality and efficiency of the code.

No offence meant to anybody, but I think Rohan makes a pefectly valid point here.
Prabu Raj
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 15, 2009
Posts: 2
Dear All,

Thanks for yours comments and suggestions…
It is really encouraging me

How should explore to help get my foot in the software Industry?
I am just meditative myself how to set my career path as a software engineer not just to be a coder?
What kind of skills (Technical and soft skills) does a software engineer need?
Where can I get Open Source projects to get hands on experience?
Please let me know your valuable advice…

Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Seetharaman Venkatasamy wrote:
So Dear Rohan, non-computer science gratuates cant code ? or not able to understand the concept? . I am a computer science gratuate , but during college days I didnt know anything . still I am improving my basics . Infact I started reading computer books after my college

Yes they can code. Yes they can understand concept. It is same as even if you do not have formal management education / degree, still you can become good manager. That is possible. It depends on person's talent. But having a formal education gives advantage. I am B.E. Computer Science and I have seen this difference over the years.
Rohan kanade
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 22, 2009
Posts: 106
Prabu Raj wrote:Dear All,

Thanks for yours comments and suggestions…
It is really encouraging me

How should explore to help get my foot in the software Industry?
I am just meditative myself how to set my career path as a software engineer not just to be a coder?
What kind of skills (Technical and soft skills) does a software engineer need?
Where can I get Open Source projects to get hands on experience?
Please let me know your valuable advice…



Firstly, please start coding in any language , just try to solve problems using programming,

Use this google link to learn about programming
http://code.google.com/edu/

and take a look at these amazon book list, and try to read most of them.
http://www.amazon.com/Software-Development-Reading-List/lm/R2MOS4VO74D8J8/ref=cm_lmt_fvlm_f_1_rlrsrs0

http://www.amazon.com/Graduate-Computer-Science-Syllabus/lm/R1W5RA9RQJUE0I/ref=cm_srch_res_rpli_alt_1

and as i said ,if you want a job asap, try to get hands on experience in technologies which appear in the job ads.
some of them for Java are, The Spring Framework, Struts Framework,Hibernate Framework,Java EE Api's

these are frameworks which are used to build applications, try to use them in your practice code.

and my final advice would be that, you join some trade school which offer 3-6 months training for jobs (if you need one urgently).
Seetharaman Venkatasamy
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 28, 2008
Posts: 5575

Sandeep Awasthi wrote:It depends on person's talent. But having a formal education gives advantage.


I agree on this
Sandeep Awasthi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 597
Rohan kanade wrote:
and as i said ,if you want a job asap, try to get hands on experience in technologies which appear in the job ads.
some of them for Java are, The Spring Framework, Struts Framework,Hibernate Framework,Java EE Api's

these are frameworks which are used to build applications, try to use them in your practice code.

and my final advice would be that, you join some trade school which offer 3-6 months training for jobs (if you need one urgently).

Be careful about what to learn and what not to. You will get only 24 hours in a day and 7 days in a week as everyone gets. If you try to learn all these frameworks and API, I do not see it is practical to learn everything and in real project you may not be using everything and all this is not expected from entry level developers.
 
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subject: I'm so frustrated and fear for my future