aspose file tools*
The moose likes Meaningless Drivel and the fly likes James Gosling leaves Oracle/Sun Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Java 8 in Action this week in the Java 8 forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Other » Meaningless Drivel
Bookmark "James Gosling leaves Oracle/Sun" Watch "James Gosling leaves Oracle/Sun" New topic
Author

James Gosling leaves Oracle/Sun

Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29287
    
140

How do we not have a thread on this yet? I'll cite Business Week, but this information/quote is all over.

"As to why I left, it's difficult to answer: just about anything I could say that would be accurate and honest would do more harm than good," he wrote.

This statement doesn't exactly do good. Not that Gossling is required to say only good things of course.

The questions is, what does it mean. Often after an acquisition, the most senior people are shown the door. Gossling is one of those senior people. Yes, he is the "father of Java." He will still be that regardless of whether he works for Oracle/Sun. There are plenty of strategic things he could do. For example, IBM paying him to help Eclipse crush NetBeans.

Thoughts on implications?


[Blog] [JavaRanch FAQ] [How To Ask Questions The Smart Way] [Book Promos]
Blogging on Certs: SCEA Part 1, Part 2 & 3, Core Spring 3, OCAJP, OCPJP beta, TOGAF part 1 and part 2
Arvind Mahendra
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 14, 2007
Posts: 1162
At a very high level view from 30,000 feet, this is clash of visions. Larry Ellison has a vision for where he wants Java to vs. Gosling's vision. In order for gosling to realize his vision, the enterprise needs to be that vehicle which will get him there and same for Larry's. Gosling probably wants to grow java and Ellison must want to grow sales, grow staff and manage the asset(java). Gosling is probably feeling a little run over and maybe even a victim of his creativity, what he has put into motion is way beyond his control now. It's not just a language, its an economy in itself.


I want to be like marc
Ernest Friedman-Hill
author and iconoclast
Marshal

Joined: Jul 08, 2003
Posts: 24168
    
  30

I think it has more symbolic value than anything else. The folks who have had the most impact on what the platform actually looks like now and where it's headed have already left (Josh Bloch, for example) and are working at Google, mostly. Gosling's direct technical contributions have been minimal for quite a while.

That said, the symbolic value is significant. I would not be surprised to see someone -- IBM? Google? -- pick up Gosling and OpenJava and produce the new defacto standard JVM implementation within the next two years. I think Oracle has no clear vision to articulate, and that vacuum is an opportunity that the big players are unlikely to squander.


[Jess in Action][AskingGoodQuestions]
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Ernest Friedman-Hill wrote:That said, the symbolic value is significant. .... and that vacuum is an opportunity that the big players are unlikely to squander.


Agree on the huge symbolic value, in practice its not a big deal.

But if the big players jump in, I expect Java to fork. Which, IMHO, would be good, as I think Java the language has run its course, time for something more parallel and independent (no J2EE or JEE or whatever) to take over. I love the JVM, but the language itself and the ecology that has built up around it, not so much.
Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29287
    
140

Ernest: I agree. I think IBM is most likely given they are the biggest Java player I can think of. They already have their own JVM embedded in WebSphere though. Not sure how well that would play with an open version.

Pat: Re forking, I hope not. I think the strength of a language (or JVM) is that there is only one standard.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote: I think the strength of a language (or JVM) is that there is only one standard.

As someone smarter than me said long ago: The great thing about standards is that there are so many to chose from.

While I will agree that today, there is only one Java -the compiler- standard, the reality is that Java is far larger than just the language. I have a 1998 or so copy of Java in a Nutshell, and its a tiny book. Because the standard library was small. Today, you don't really write Java, you write in the Java language for JEE or Java ME, or with Hibernate and Servlets, or....

To be effective in using Java these days, you have to understand a ton of other technologies. At some levels, writing a Java application is really a Systems Integration effort. And as with all systems integration efforts, its a lot of work after a lot of learning.

Java today is a long way from Oak that Gosling and company invented so long ago, in a century far away.
Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 26, 2006
Posts: 4968
    
    1

"As to why I left, it's difficult to answer: just about anything I could say that would be accurate and honest would do more harm than good," he wrote.


That's actually pretty damning. At James' level, with so many people watching, these types of situations are handled very diplomatically. That's not very diplomatic at all, and for someone of his stature to make a comment like that, well, I can't help but think he was really unhappy.

I'm really curious about the 'why.' Why did he leave, and why did he leave sun now, at this juncture in time?

I prognosticated that he showed a bit of disillusionment and frustration when talking about the JCP, but that hardly seems a reason to quit.

My Column on James' Frustration with JCP on TheServerSide.com
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

This is actually getting scary. Top management at Sun India quit last week and now Gosling makes it official. Like everyone, I am also wondering what does it signify for Java? Moreover, wondering what would Oracle do to the future of Java (for that matter to MySQL as well).

What do you guys think? How would you react to this news if you're an organization planning a product that heavily relies on these technologies?
Any insights?
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Cameron Wallace McKenzie wrote:My (@Cameron) Column on James' Frustration with JCP on TheServerSide.com

From the article: "James Gosling reiterated a common frustration he had about the Java Community Process, damning it as a 'political nightmare.'"

To which I have to say a big fat Duh!.

All industry 'standards meetings' are political. They are explicitly about setting standards for the industry. The people who go to them are players in the industry, or the part of the industry, that will be directly impacted by the standards. The reason that their bosses send them is to influence the standards that come out of the process. By definition, the standards that emerge are rearward facing, least common subsets of what the vendors have and want.

Take as an example, a similar meeting anytime from 30 years ago to now, where Sybase might want to influence the SQL standard with a cool feature that they have implemented. Immediately, the reps from Ingress, Oracle, DB2, and all the other vendors that don't have the cool feature will block it. They don't want Sybase to get a leg up in the marketing wars. So the only things that get put into the standard are things that everyone already has implemented, and that won't make any difference.

Replace SQL with 802.11n, USB 3.0, or about anything else worth fighting over, replacing Sybase and Oracle with Cisco and D-Link, etc. and the story is the same.

Cameron Wallace McKenzie
author and cow tipper
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 26, 2006
Posts: 4968
    
    1

Manish Hatwalne wrote:if you're an organization planning a product that heavily relies on these technologies?
Any insights?


This isn't like Mick Jagger leaving The Rolling Stones. This is more like a key manager that was integral in getting the stones to where they are today leaving. The impact at the beginning may have been huge, but at this point, Java is a machine that moves ahead with its own momentum, and there is no, one, single key figure that can make or break it anymore. So, you can continue to plan on Java, just like you can continue to buy tickets to the Rolling Stones when they come to town. Both are solid investments.

Of course, with that said, it doesn't make it any less sad to see James, or even a good manager for The Rolling Stones, leave.

@Pat - That's the most depressing thing I've ever read.
@Manish Hatwalne - Thanks for the link to the Oracle India Article you're about to give me the next time you post.
Steven Mann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 05, 2010
Posts: 55
This is truly sad. I wish him the best.

This is actually getting scary. Top management at Sun India quit last week and now Gosling makes it official. Like everyone, I am also wondering what does it signify for Java? Moreover, wondering what would Oracle do to the future of Java (for that matter to MySQL as well).


I was wondering the same thing. Hopefully, Oracle won't mess things up.

If love was a sandwich, I'd eat it.
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Cameron Wallace McKenzie wrote:
Manish Hatwalne wrote:if you're an organization planning a product that heavily relies on these technologies?
Any insights?


This isn't like Mick Jagger leaving The Rolling Stones. This is more like a key manager that was integral in getting the stones to where they are today leaving. The impact at the beginning may have been huge, but at this point, Java is a machine that moves ahead with its own momentum, and there is no, one, single key figure that can make or break it anymore. So, you can continue to plan on Java, just like you can continue to buy tickets to the Rolling Stones when they come to town. Both are solid investments.

Of course, with that said, it doesn't make it any less sad to see James, or even a good manager for The Rolling Stones, leave.

@Pat - That's the most depressing thing I've ever read.


I think it's *definitely* more than just Gosling leaving. I also mentioned about Top Indian management quitting Sun India and when you consider this along with Gosling's quote, one can't help but feel concerned about how Oracle treats Java. Let's see...
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Manish Hatwalne wrote:one can't help but feel concerned about how Oracle treats Java.

I'm not at all concerned. Oracle bought Sun for its hardware (or to be able to bid hardware against IBM and DB2, and for MySql which was attacking Oracle from the low end. I will bet a beer that Java didn't even enter into Oracle's thinking.

I fully expect Oracle to abandon, ignore, or otherwise forget about Java. I don't expect them to officially kill it, but I don't expect them to keep doing all the engineering effort that Sun did.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15292
    
    6

Pat Farrell wrote:I fully expect Oracle to abandon, ignore, or otherwise forget about Java. I don't expect them to officially kill it, but I don't expect them to keep doing all the engineering effort that Sun did.


Considering the dependency that Oracle has on Java, I don't see how one would think Oracle would abandon it. What does Oracle have that doesn't require Java that they can make money with? Aside from their DB?
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Pat Farrell wrote:
Manish Hatwalne wrote:one can't help but feel concerned about how Oracle treats Java.

I fully expect Oracle to abandon, ignore, or otherwise forget about Java. I don't expect them to officially kill it, but I don't expect them to keep doing all the engineering effort that Sun did.


Right! And to me, that doesn't sound nice! Anyway! As someone said, it's time for other big players to jump at it!
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Gregg Bolinger wrote: What does Oracle have that doesn't require Java that they can make money with? Aside from their DB?

Aside from the DB? Weill, Oracle Financials, and Oracle's custom consulting and implementation business.

I'm not saying that I expect them to put a bullet in Java's head. But they are a user of Java and Java tools. Its like the old joke about eating breakfast of Bacon and Eggs, The chicken is concerned that you are eating her eggs, the pig is committed, and can no longer be concerned. I could be wrong, but I don't see Oracle having the deep commitment. Oracle has lots of tools to sell, and if a client doesn't like Java, they will happily sell you consulting services (at really high prices) using any tool you like.

Then, I really don't care about Java. I've been changing languages as tools every 5 years or so over the past 35 years. At this point, learning yet another language is not a big deal. And there are parts of the Java design that I will be glad to see be @deprecated.
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15292
    
    6

Pat Farrell wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't see Oracle having the deep commitment. Oracle has lots of tools to sell, and if a client doesn't like Java, they will happily sell you consulting services (at really high prices) using any tool you like


I don't buy it. Their middleware is java based and their development tools are java based. These 2 alone make me believe Oracle might want Java to stick around. It even makes me think they might try and do something with Java that benefits them. Whether that's good or bad, it's different than abandoning it. We see a lot of products that public facing don't seem to have anything to do with Java. But I'd be willing to bet their Java weaved into more than what is immediately visible. You don't abandon the glue. And it's my belief that Java, albeit not completely, is part of the glue for Oracle.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Gregg Bolinger wrote: Their middleware is java based and their development tools are java based.

And difference of opinion is why they run the horse races. I don't see anything tons better than Java today. But years ago, I talked to DBMS packages using Fortran. Before that Cobol, these days Java, and I'm sure something else before I stop slinging code.

I've always hated both the word "middleware" and what it actually does. Great for consultant billing rates and billable hours, but not what I want to get near.

Back to Grosling, we will never know why he left. I'm a bit surprised he was a candid as he was in the quote. Most folks are tactful enough to say "spend more time with my family" or "rest up before I pursue other startup ideas"
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15292
    
    6

Maybe he's jumped on the anti-adobe bandwagon and he's going to join Apple to help push JavaFX onto the iPad. ;)
Jeanne Boyarsky
internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 29287
    
140

Java is distributed with Oracle DB too. It must be used for something.

I don't think Gosling living signifies the end of Java. Oracle is one of the biggest players for Java products. (even before buying Sun, they were in the top 10) They know full well if they don't keep control of the community, IBM et al will be happy to do it for them.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:IBM et al will be happy to do it for them.

Excuse me if that fails to life my spirits.

Not that Sun has done all that well recently with Java, the whole JSR process is out of control, all politics.

We need a new king, a benevolent dictator to rule over the land of Java++ or whatever its called.
Manish Hatwalne
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 22, 2001
Posts: 2578

Obviously, Java is *not* dying at all!
However, Gosling's quote and few recent events makes one wonder what plans will Oracle have for Java & related technologies in the near future. We will have to wait & watch what Oracle do with its new acquisition. I have articulated my thoughts in more details here - Someone moved my coffee...
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4639
    
    5

Manish Hatwalne wrote:Obviously, Java is *not* dying at all!


I'm not saying that it is dead, today. I am saying that its future is not as bright as it was. And for some very sound engineering reasons. These existed before Oracle bought Sun, before Gosling left Oracle, etc.

Actually, there is hard evidence that it is. Recent reports show that Java is no longer the #1 language, and that C and C++ are regaining popularity.
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

"After more than 4 years C is back at position number 1 in the TIOBE index. The scores for C have been pretty constant through the years, varying between the 15% and 20% market share for almost 10 years. So the main reason for C's number 1 position is not C's uprise, but the decline of its competitor Java. Java has a long-term downward trend. It is losing ground to other languages running on the JVM. An example of such a language is JavaFX script that is now approaching the top 20."

Joe Harry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 26, 2006
Posts: 9243
    
    1

[ UD: Please don't hijack existing topics with unrelated questions. ]


SCJP 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 - Hints for you, SCBCD Hints - Demnachst, SCDJWS - Auch Demnachst
Did a rm -R / to find out that I lost my entire Linux installation!
Greg Charles
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 01, 2001
Posts: 2774
    
  10

Pat Farrell wrote:
Manish Hatwalne wrote:one can't help but feel concerned about how Oracle treats Java.

I'm not at all concerned. Oracle bought Sun for its hardware (or to be able to bid hardware against IBM and DB2, and for MySql which was attacking Oracle from the low end. I will bet a beer that Java didn't even enter into Oracle's thinking.

I fully expect Oracle to abandon, ignore, or otherwise forget about Java. I don't expect them to officially kill it, but I don't expect them to keep doing all the engineering effort that Sun did.


That would be a stretch even if Oracle only bought Sun, but they also bought BEA, which puts them pretty solidly behind Java.
Darya Akbari
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1855
Cameron Wallace McKenzie wrote:Java is a machine that moves ahead with its own momentum, and there is no, one, single key figure that can make or break it anymore.


I fully agree with that statement. Neither Oracle nor Gosling himself can stop it anymore . This language is there once and forever. Like english, it's smart and spoken all over the globe.

And even a standstill of Java evolution for a while will not hurt this language as with any other natural language.

Maybe James Gosling is the father of Java, but this child very early left its father to stand on its own feets. Why do we relate Java to James Gosling's move from Oracle? This man did a great (and maybe his greatest) job with inventing Java, but live goes on even for James Gosling .



Jesper de Jong
Java Cowboy
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 13884
    
  10

Manish Hatwalne wrote:This is actually getting scary. Top management at Sun India quit last week and now Gosling makes it official. Like everyone, I am also wondering what does it signify for Java? Moreover, wondering what would Oracle do to the future of Java (for that matter to MySQL as well).

What do you guys think? How would you react to this news if you're an organization planning a product that heavily relies on these technologies?
Any insights?

The future of Java is not in the hands of one company and certainly not in the hands of one man. James Gosling leaving Oracle means absolutely nothing for the future of Java. Java is one of the most popular and widely used programming languages ever and it is not going to disappear anytime soon. A company like Oracle can't even make it disappear if it wanted to. There is no need at all to worry that Java is going to disappear anytime soon.

Pat Farrell wrote:"After more than 4 years C is back at position number 1 in the TIOBE index. The scores for C have been pretty constant through the years, varying between the 15% and 20% market share for almost 10 years. So the main reason for C's number 1 position is not C's uprise, but the decline of its competitor Java. Java has a long-term downward trend. It is losing ground to other languages running on the JVM. An example of such a language is JavaFX script that is now approaching the top 20."

Come on man, this is just FUD and rumours. Don't take the TIOBE index so seriously.

Java Beginners FAQ - JavaRanch SCJP FAQ - The Java Tutorial - Java SE 7 API documentation
Scala Notes - My blog about Scala
 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: James Gosling leaves Oracle/Sun
 
Similar Threads
what cirtificates company expect for architect job ?
Q: Why SUN people named it as "Java"?
Java and Sun: why did they drop the ball?
Does the scripting language beat down java?
please list out countries in which Software industry is doing well?