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How to get real work experience when most jobs require work experience

James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

Okay I have a Bachelors degree in Computer Information Systems where I took classes in COBOL, C/C++ and VB6. After college I studied Java some after after looking for awhile took anything I could get doing anything. I worked as a team leader in an manufacturing plant for 3 years, then got a job as a Database Analyst where I've worked for 3 years. Weird how I got a job working with Oracle when I only took one class on it in college but my wife knew someone. Anyway I am wanting to get into the programming field. I've received calls from recruiters wanting real work experience for the jobs they have available. I have not seen many Java jobs that require no work experience. And to compound things I have moved up into my position as an Analyst and get paid more than an entry level programming would. So I would like a programming job where I get paid more(since I would have to drive 90mins to work, now I drive 12mins) and it has to be entry level since I have no real work experience. I can get my certification but with no work experience that may be a waste of time and money right now. Does developing open source projects look as good as real world work experienece?

In short how am I supposed to get a job when I have no real work experinece, how am I supposed to get real work experience without a job? I don't know anyone that can help me out like I did when I got the job I have now.


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Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
If you have no "paid" work experience as a programmer, and you manage to get a job offer for an entry-level programmer, you most likely will have to accept a lower salary than you have now. You should re-evaluate why you want to get into the programming field. It does not seem like it would be beneficial for you.

During the hiring process, when I am hiring, I don't consider "claimed" participation in some open-source project as relevant experience. Again, this is my personal opinion. Others may think differently. Good luck!
James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

I work in Database now and its more of a "it tears up and you fix it" job along with maintenance. Progamming is building something from scratch and engineering it to work correctly. It's like comparing a car mechanic to an architect(no offense to the DB people here). I did not even know what programming was when I started college. With my first programming course(COBOL) I fell in love with it. I always worked ahead and implemented new ideas ahead of the other students. I was always the person that people wanted on their programming group. It seems easier now to find Oracle work that I have 3 years experience in it here at work but I would like something more. So how can I go about getting experience? The entry level programming jobs are scarce and when I do find them they are no the other side of the US, whether it be California, or Wisconsin.

Does anyone take Open Source development as work experience or anything near work experience? What if I worked on the Firefox Team or the Open Office Team? Does that make a difference?
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
Based on what you have stated, you are already there it seems. Database programming is a very advanced concept and PL-SQL and Transact-SQL are very advanced programming languages. If you do not know how to program with these languages, then you should learn. It sounds like you would need to change positions/company however. But, your database experience would be relevant and would help you maintain your current salary.

Attempting to become a Java-based software developer will be difficult for you and you would most likely need to start at the bottom, if you could ever capture a position. I would say, don't waste your time.

Aside, relational table theory and relational database design are very good things to become an expert at.

When I am looking for an entry-level programmer, I look for someone fresh out of college with absolutely zero work experience. It is too late for you I'm afraid.

Bear Bibeault
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  66

Ridiculous.

Jobs are hard to find in general, and will more so for you as you seem to know, but to continue doing something you don't like because someone on an Internet forum poo-pood your desires would be madness.

I've never been in a position to hire anything but senior-level developers, so I probably don't have any concrete tips I can give you, but to drop your dreams because "it's too late for you" would be folly.

If I were looking for entry-level developers, I'd certainly give more weight to someone with work experience of any kind rather than someone straight out of school with no work-place skills.

You may have to make some sacrifices, but if it's worth it to you, I advise to keep trying.


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Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
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Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Henry Pinkerton wrote:During the hiring process, when I am hiring, I don't consider "claimed" participation in some open-source project as relevant experience.


Interesting you put the word claimed in quotes. What about non-quoted claims? There are folks that do a lot in the open source world and I'd consider that real world working experience. In fact, I'd probably hire an open source developer before someone from some random IT shop. At least I know I could go look at his work if I wanted to.

And I'm with Bear. It's going to be a rough road for sure, but if it is what you really want, go for it. And stomp all over folks telling you that you can't.


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Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
I agree with Bear as well. But I will tell you this, I can find entry-level programmers that are more open to being molded and will accept a lower salary than someone with 6+ years non development work experience. In sotware development, with experience comes an "opinion." It is enough trouble dealing with the "opinions" of senior staff, let alone someone still wet behind the ears.

In regards to considering open-source experience, if a project is large and has 10+ participants for example, there is no way to easily determine what an actual participant actually did, and what the others members did. Sticking "I worked on Apache Tomcat project" does not tell me much about what "you" actually did. To determine if the individual is "piggy-backing" on other people's work takes time and effort, I'm not interested in being a detective. Other opinions may vary.

In my opinion, he/she has better chances with hardcore database technology. And a great Database Architect is a valuable team member in an enterprise setting, and typically brings in a pretty impressive salary as well. Just me two cents
Deepak Bala
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Joined: Feb 24, 2006
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    5

Hi James,

I would like to remind you that what Henry Pinkerton presents here is merely his opinion. I have had people tell me why my idea / position is weak or silly but that has not stopped me from scaling obstacles in the past. With enough hard work and persistence you can get pretty much get almost any job you want. You can contribute to open source projects / take java certifications / learn frameworks etc and improve your employability. At the end of the day skill and experience are looked at fondly. Build your skill and you should be good to go.


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Janeice DelVecchio
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Joined: Sep 14, 2009
Posts: 1660
    
  11

I'm in college now and have a full time job.

I, too, want a nice programming job. I feel like it's my calling.

My plan? I work hard at the job I have now and finish up school. Once I'm done with that, well, and even now.... I work on as many programming projects as I can get my hands on. I'm building a portfolio, and when I get some more time, I'm going to start freelancing on small or open source projects. I also think learning more advanced concepts, and other languages is a good idea too.

Right now, I'm taking my SQL and Oracle classes, as well as some classes that are letting me spread my programming wings a little. I am working on learning PL/SQL and also getting more fluent in JDBC.

At some point, I will scrape enough experience together and (combined with my work and school experience), I will eventually get a programming job. I have no doubts that I will be able to compete with applicants for Junior level positions and I'm sure that in time the pay cut I may have to take to begin with will be washed out by the eventuality that I'll make a decent chunk of change once I get some working/programming experience.

James, my best advice to you is to keep on moving towards your goal, keep getting better at what you do, and keep your eyes on the prize. Maybe Henry Pinkerton won't hire you (or me for that matter LOL), but someone will acknowledge our hard work and take a shot on us.


When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
Luke Kolin
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Henry Pinkerton wrote:I can find entry-level programmers that are more open to being molded and will accept a lower salary than someone with 6+ years non development work experience. In software development, with experience comes an "opinion." It is enough trouble dealing with the "opinions" of senior staff, let alone someone still wet behind the ears.


If you're interested in finding people who simply will take a lower salary and don't have opinions, you're welcome to - but you're unlikely to find anyone good. I know of a lot of people who will take less money and keep their mouths shut, and there's a reason for that. Good luck creating anything more advanced than a basic CRUD application, though.

In regards to considering open-source experience, if a project is large and has 10+ participants for example, there is no way to easily determine what an actual participant actually did, and what the others members did. Sticking "I worked on Apache Tomcat project" does not tell me much about what "you" actually did. To determine if the individual is "piggy-backing" on other people's work takes time and effort, I'm not interested in being a detective. Other opinions may vary.


Yup, opinions do vary. An open-source project will have an open source repository and change log, which you can review to get a feel for their contributions and effort. Additionally, you can get a good feel for their aptitude by talking to them about their experiences and the challenges in particular change - provided you are competent to interpret what they say. But if you're not interested in paying a higher salary or dealing with their opinions, are you really saying that someone with experience in a large-scale, prominent open source project would have more authority in your team than you, and that's what you really seek to avoid? Based on your statements I'm unsure whether experienced people would want to work for you.

In my opinion, he/she has better chances with hardcore database technology. And a great Database Architect is a valuable team member in an enterprise setting, and typically brings in a pretty impressive salary as well. Just me two cents


Is there an opportunity for such a person on your term? I wonder.

Luke
Jan Cumps
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Joined: Dec 20, 2006
Posts: 2497
    
    8

I followed the Janeice track.
Worked in automotive for 10 years.
Went to school again to graduate in IT, while working.
I had a hard time finding my first job. I managed to get a 'less than junior' developer job that payed significantly less than what I was earning at that moment (as Janeice and Bear say: there are some sacrifices to be made). But it was at a decent company, with interesting projects.

... and I didn't stay 'less than junior' very long

For me, getting the first job was more difficult than for freshers that did not have a career before (partly because my government gives tax advantages to companies that hire freshers). Having work experience in a different area seemed to be a disadvantage. But after that first hurdle, the road was wide open.

James, you know what you want.



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Tim Holloway
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Joined: Jun 25, 2001
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  20

One of the biggest complaints about the use of Asian programmers is that they don't offer opinions. They do exactly what they're told. Even if it's wrong. That they are in fact, displaying the one behavior that frustrates people most in computers - that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. Meaning that the Everyday Low Prices that offshore/H1-B labor are supposed to provide are diluted by the need to "program the programmers".

It's called Respect for Authority, and Americans have been accused of failing too much in the opposite direction, but in general, in the USA we praise people who "show initiative", "think outside the box" and otherwise Question Authority.

For most of the 20th Century, the USA has been the world leader in business and commerce, and much of the credit for that has been given to the ideal that Americans are more than just mindless worker drones. That they were willing to ignore the status quo and strike out on their own. That we should take risks, that we might reap rewards.

Yes, we're an unruly rabble. And we owned the world. At least until we sold it all to the People's Republic of China for Wal-Mart Savings.

For the record, I ran into the same Catch-22 getting my first job, and I'm afraid that the way I finally broke in was to get unruly with the HR people. I was carrying a portfolio of work (which would have been meaningless to them, anyway), but when I alarmed them, they brought in an actual IT manager to calm me down, and I obtained the opportunity to show off my work. They hired me the same day.

If I'd "kept my head" down, I probably would have gone nowhere.


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James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

thanks for the great advice and motivation! I was thinking last night that I could develop some java apps here at work once I ok it with my boss. I have written an app in VBA with MS Access, but I orginally wanted to write a Java program that connects to our Oracle DB. Since the program did not require Oracle and MS Access could handle the data they decided for me to do it in MS Access. There are also programmers here at my work(well they are in Ohio actually) so I could have an advantage for just working here. They use Java with Eclipse and COBOL lol.

Again Thanks.
David Newton
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Joined: Sep 29, 2008
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Tim Holloway wrote:One of the biggest complaints about the use of Asian programmers is that they don't offer opinions. They do exactly what they're told. Even if it's wrong. That they are in fact, displaying the one behavior that frustrates people most in computers - that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. Meaning that the Everyday Low Prices that offshore/H1-B labor are supposed to provide are diluted by the need to "program the programmers".

I've had a few conversations with the Indian programmers I've worked with and for--part of it has to do with the education churn that happened during the outsourcing ramp-up. People I have to supervise *constantly* are of no value to me: people happy to cut-and-paste their way through assignments incur more technical debt that I'm willing to take on. It's an interesting problem (that has nothing to do with being Indian, obviously, just the training environment), one that I'm struggling to deal with right now as we try to clean up and modernize a relatively old code base so we don't have to throw it all away moving forward.

As a person who hires people of all experience levels I can tell you I'm *far* more impressed (and pleasantly surprised) by an ability to think, solve problems, admit ignorance, and figure things out, than I am by any amount of education or directly-relevant experience. I can teach anybody Java* but I don't have the time to teach people how to think. Experience on a "real-world" project is highly valuable, open source or not.

* This has actually not been the case--some people don't know how to learn and how to generalize experience: these people are worse than useless to me. They are a liability. They cost me money three times: once for the original, twice for the fix, and a third time for the *real* fix.
Tim Holloway
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Joined: Jun 25, 2001
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  20

There are 2 different factors here. One is cultural, one has to do with training and education. There is some interrelationship there, since a complaint about Indian education is that it actually punishes people for showing initiative, and that it's too focused on rote learning. However, education can be overcome, as Mark Twain once noted. The Indian IT workforce as we know it today is relatively young (although one of my co-workers at my first job aeons ago was Indian). The good ones will learn. The really bad ones will (mostly) drop out. The mediocre ones will comprise the 80% of everything just like mediocre US and European workers do. The really bad ones will go into management.

Culture is harder to shake. That's in large part because it extends beyond the workplace and into life in general and it's not always easy to have one personality for work and a radically different one for general social interaction. Neither Indian nor Chinese society have much appreciation for "mavericks". Indians who come to the US have varying results. Some get corrupted, become entrepreneurs and even get indicted. Some remain true to their roots. I know some of each. Some are so timid that it makes me want to weep.
Rohan kanade
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Joined: Oct 22, 2009
Posts: 106
Hey, Stop Talking about Indians like this.
Work Comes to India because companies outside India want to cut costs, and when you cut back expenses, you get what you pay for.

I admit that Indian programmers dont think out of the box, or they just nod their heads for each order you give them, that's because they have no option nor do they have good resources or good leadership.

There was such a rush in the last 15 years that, Indian programmers didnt think that it was good to learn computer science, or to develop logical thinking and also to develop a mindset which boosts creativity and Innovation.

But now since things have stabilized , the growth and surplus cash flow that corrupted Indian programmers is not there. So now Programmers like me who are just starting out in India, we have what it takes to take on any damn programmer/computer scientist/IT guy in the world. I can assure you guys, that in coming years, you will see innovation from within India, and you will see that programmers like me will question bad software architecture, poor management, poor vision.

and btw, India is a country with more 1.5 billion people, the probability of you guys finding mediocre people is the highest here, So its the test of the company outsourcing its work to find better people.


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Tim Holloway
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Joined: Jun 25, 2001
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  20

Actually, the probaility of finding mediocre programmers in the Indian population is no greater than anywhere else, and probably less than in some places. India has a tradition of mathematical and analytical thought that goes back for millennia. However, in a larger population, you will inevitably have a larger number of mediocre workers, simply because you have a larger number of everyone.

I think the "1.5 billion people" thing is a bit overblown, however. The ratio of professionals to farmers in India is still low compared to most countries, and it's the size of the professional population that counts, not the raw population of the country as a whole.

I concur, however. You do get what you pay for. And if Americans have a tradition of taking the lead in business, we've also have shown a willingness to punish ourselves by accepting cheap, shoddy service in everything from telephone support ("Your call is very important to us. Press 5 to continue") to lead-painted toys to websites where you can't even sign up to buy a product some days. India isn't full of stupid people. If we want cheap garbage, they're willing to accommodate us and laugh all the way to the bank.

Cultures change, and Indian culture in particular has changed a lot in recent years. A lot of the "know your place" attitude is an English legacy from the days of the Raj. There are things depicted in Indian temples that would never be permitted in today's Indian culture and tomorrow's India won't be the same as today's. Nor for that matter, will anyone's. We've seen that in the Land of the Free, where freedom has been spiralling down the drain for 30+ years and things that used to exist only in George Orwell's imagination (or the Evil Empire) are now taken for granted. Welcome the the USA. We are Free, We are Brave, and we're scared yellow of terrorists. You will please to remove your shoes, your underwear and present your papers!
Bert Bates
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Joined: Oct 14, 2002
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    5
I used to hire a lot of programmers. Here are the things I looked for:

- communication skills
- positive personality
- the ability to learn

I didn't care so much about specific programming language experience, or even 'professional programming experience'.

Technologies come and go, the people you want to work with are the ones who are happy, able to learn, and able to communicate - that means speaking AND listening. It's not about the technology.


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Ben Souther
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Henry Pinkerton wrote:
In regards to considering open-source experience, if a project is large and has 10+ participants for example, there is no way to easily determine what an actual participant actually did, and what the others members did. Sticking "I worked on Apache Tomcat project" does not tell me much about what "you" actually did. To determine if the individual is "piggy-backing" on other people's work takes time and effort, I'm not interested in being a detective. Other opinions may vary.


Not true.
Maybe with another OSS project but I could, if I wanted to, find and prove all of my commitments to Tomcat. There aren't many and they're trivial but I could prove every one on of them down to the line of code changed.

Commitments to Tomcat are made via diff patches and must be approved by a committer (of which there are under a dozen). The patch has to be submitted to a publicly running copy of Bugzilla. There is usually some back and forth with the committers in the bugzilla thread and a solid review by one of them (who doesn't want to put his/her own reputation at risk by adding unchecked code from a stranger).
Once approved the committer adds it to the SVN (or, CVS depending on when the patch was committed) repository, which is also public. The committer will usually mention the name of the person who donated the patch right in the SVN comments. Even if they don't however, there is still the bugzilla post where the patch was originally donated.

IMHO: Working on open source projects, especially high profile ones like Apache Tomcat, is an excellent way to prove real world experience.


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David Newton
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Hmm, I missed the bit about not being able to show what you did on a project.

If there's any sort of reasonable source control there's *always* a way to find out what an individual user did--that's one of the points of using source control.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
As mentioned, strong relational table theory knowledge combined with keen database programming skills will enable someone already working in the database area (for 3+ years) to develop a good career.

Janeice DelVecchio
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Joined: Sep 14, 2009
Posts: 1660
    
  11

So Henry, you're saying there's a better chance of getting a DB job than a Java/other programming job?

Is this only because you value the skill more, or because it's based on some fact?

I'd actually like a job where I could do both DB activities and Java programming. I suppose I'm screwed.
Tim Holloway
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Joined: Jun 25, 2001
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  20

Janeice DelVecchio wrote:
I'd actually like a job where I could do both DB activities and Java programming. I suppose I'm screwed.


Not necessarily. I'm doing DBA duties on PostgreSQL, MySQL and DB2 at the moment while developing for J2EE and Android (when I can find time), So I've also had to work with Derby and SQLite within the last 2 months.

The catch is I'm also sysadmin on a lot of the above systems, chief cook and bottlewasher.

In my case it's because I arranged it that way, although these days all you have to do is be the last person standing when the latest wave of downsizings comes through to be granted similar honors.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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  66

Henry Pinkerton wrote:As mentioned, strong relational table theory knowledge combined with keen database programming skills will enable someone already working in the database area (for 3+ years) to develop a good career.

Doing something that you do not like doing in no way constitutes a "good career" in my book.

I could probably be making a lot more money by practicing law. But it would suck a little of my soul out every day as I know I would hate very second of it.
Jimmy Clark
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Posts: 2187
Doing something that you do not like doing in no way constitutes a "good career" in my book.


This is very true. The OP seems to feel that "database work" and "programming" are different fields and they really are not. I was trying to help him see this. While the programming languages may vary with different technologies, programming still consists of sequential statements, iterations, and conditional processing. Basically, there are other "programming" jobs in the world besides those in Java.

Since the OP has been promoted and seems to be only looking for more money, I think he would be better off staying in database area. If he really dislikes his current responsibilities, then he should certainly look to change jobs. If he wants to change jobs and get a significant salary increase, then he should stayed focused in database area.


Marilyn de Queiroz
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  10
Janeice DelVecchio wrote:I'd actually like a job where I could do both DB activities and Java programming. I suppose I'm screwed.

My current position requires a combination of Java and SQL to get the job done.


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David Newton
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I have yet to have a JEE position where I wasn't required to know at least *some* SQL.

To one of the original points, I've found that the great programmers and the great DB people are usually different people--most programmers don't know enough about RDBMSs, why most of them aren't really "R", understand the query tuning tricks that truly good DB know instinctively. They're obviously related, but they're pretty different types of activities.
James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

If I was a database developer than I would not mind it as much. As a database analyst I just correct data in the tables by removing, updating or deleting records. There's a program that employees use and it writes data to the database so when the progam gives an error I have to figure out why. I also support engineers that use software that only reads the data and does not write to the DB. I did program a VBA MS Access program at work but that has been my extent of programming. I don't even really do any DBA activities such as create tables, monitor performance or do any tuning. We only have 6 users that connect to the Oracle DB to write data so the DB is not real busy. I also ensure the servers have enough disc space and check logs from batch files that run at night and over the weekend. My thought has been to just write that MS Access program in Java and connect it to Oracle as experience. My supervisor has said I can learn to program java at work. So while I do work as a database analyst I support specific software that not many companies use, it was actually written in 1994.
Tim Holloway
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  20

Don't forget that there is a free version of Oracle as well that you should be able to use for desktop programming.

As a bonus, if you install that, you'll end up picking up some skills that would help you if if ever wanted to fall back to being a DBA. Not to mention that it will give you a better appreciation of what DBAs have to do.
James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

Tim Holloway wrote:Don't forget that there is a free version of Oracle as well that you should be able to use for desktop programming.

As a bonus, if you install that, you'll end up picking up some skills that would help you if if ever wanted to fall back to being a DBA. Not to mention that it will give you a better appreciation of what DBAs have to do.


I had Oracle 10G installed on my work computer. I had a database setup with tables and data so I could learn more DBA stuff and program against it. I hope to start back with it once I'm finished with this special project I'm on.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
James, keep in mind that the activities and responsibilities of a Database Administrator (DBA) and a Data Architect are not the same. Things won't happen overnight however.

The software programmer position and the DBA position are relatively entry-level positions, so the individuals are typically not the same. Once the programmer moves up to software engineer or software architect, he/she has already gained significant database programming and database design skills, and relies upon a DBA for administration and cleanup tasks.

On the other side, a DBA can shift into database programming which may lead to a Data Architect position in the future if they can develop strong non-technical skills.
Bert Bates
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    5
As software developers, we all rail against being seen as interchangeable cogs in the corporate machine. Right?

But this entire thread propagates that mindset. You're all saying that it's about knowing 'this' flavor of SQL, or 'that' version of Oracle, or RDBMS vs DBMS. It's not.

The premise of this thread is about getting work that you love. Given that premise, I contend that you won't find it at a company who's hiring decisions are based on knowledge of the technology du jour.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
There is another aspect to this thread to be considered. It is the OP's previous work experience, i.e. number of years working, and it's relationship to finding another position while increasing his salary. He has six years work experience after finishing undergraduate studies. For the past three years, he has been working in some "IT" field and now "would like a programming job where I get paid more."

If his current salary is still comparable to what a new graduate would get coming straight from college, he might be able to get a Java programming position which increases his salary.

However, he has been promoted and most likely is making more than a recent college graduate. It is highly unlikely that he can shift to a Java programming position AND increase his salary. How can he best leverage his previous experience then and INCREASE the salary?
James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

Henry Pinkerton wrote:There is another aspect to this thread to be considered. It is the OP's previous work experience, i.e. number of years working, and it's relationship to finding another position while increasing his salary. He has six years work experience after finishing undergraduate studies. For the past three years, he has been working in some "IT" field and now "would like a programming job where I get paid more."

If his current salary is still comparable to what a new graduate would get coming straight from college, he might be able to get a Java programming position which increases his salary.

However, he has been promoted and most likely is making more than a recent college graduate. It is highly unlikely that he can shift to a Java programming position AND increase his salary. How can he best leverage his previous experience then and INCREASE the salary?


The only reason I am wanting more money is because I would have to drive at least 90 minutes to work if I got any other computer related job. I would need more money to do the same work I do now if I drove 90 minutes to work everyday. I have 4 raises in the last three years and waiting on a promotion now, so you are right I am not at a "just out of college" salary anymore. I have been out of college since 2002.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
I want more money to buy new sneakers and to clean my car every week. Seriously, it sounds like you are doing well in your current role. In order to shift into the direction of a future Data Architect position, just follow my earlier suggestions, e.g. discover BCNF, FDs, datawarehousing, business intelligence, etc.

Good luck!
James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

I am doing well in my current position, that's what bothers me. The longer I do well in this professtion the more of a pay cut I will have to take to become a programmer. Whereas if I jump ship now I will take a smaller pay cut and then build up my salary again. You see to feel that I should continue a job I don't want to do for the rest of my life and just do programming as a hobbie.
Bear Bibeault
Author and ninkuma
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
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James Hambrick wrote:You see to feel that I should continue a job I don't want to do for the rest of my life and just do programming as a hobbie.
As I've said earlier, beware those who think they know what's best for you. Only you know that.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
James, take heed to Bear's caution. My comments are only suggestions for your consideration and pondering. There are a ton of other factors that I do not know about your situation or psychology.

Learn to program with PL-SQL or Transact-SQL and see how you like it. I enjoy it whenever I get the opportunity.

I would not settle for any salary reduction bigger than 10K.

Your current job only is a small part of the database world. My suggestion was to explore the other 85% that you currently do not know, not to stay in your current position for the rest of your life. Read my earlier posts a little more carefully.
James Hambrick
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Joined: Sep 04, 2004
Posts: 282

Henry Pinkerton wrote:James, take heed to Bear's caution. My comments are only suggestions for your consideration and pondering. There are a ton of other factors that I do not know about your situation or psychology.

Learn to program with PL-SQL or Transact-SQL and see how you like it. I enjoy it whenever I get the opportunity.

I would not settle for any salary reduction bigger than 10K.

Your current job only is a small part of the database world. My suggestion was to explore the other 85% that you currently do not know, not to stay in your current position for the rest of your life. Read my earlier posts a little more carefully.


I took SQL programming in college, and then took a small course on it when I got hired on. In my opinion I don't like SQL programming as well as application programming. I do not get much of a chance to do SQL programming at work though. But when I'm not doing special projects I can pretty much do whatever I want so i can learn SQL programing, DBA stuff, my boss even said I could learn Java at work.
Jimmy Clark
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Joined: Apr 16, 2008
Posts: 2187
Sounds good. Then you should start studying for SCEA certificate (skip all other Sun certifications). This should help you a bit When I received mine I was the happiest bugger in the world. It will really boost your confidence and help you perform in job interviews.
 
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subject: How to get real work experience when most jobs require work experience