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Would you hire a SCEA that has no experience as an Architect?

Rogerio Kioshi
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Joined: Apr 12, 2005
Posts: 689
Hi,

I'd like to know if you would hire a person (as an Architect) which has passed SCEA exams, but this person has no experience as a Java Architect.

Thank you.


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Ulf Dittmer
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Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42263
    
  64
Why would anyone hire a person for a job for which he has no relevant experience? It's possible that the person might be very convincing in an interview (due to having picked up the stuff in some other manner), but the chances that there will be one are not good.


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Mark Garland
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Joined: Nov 11, 2006
Posts: 226
Hi Rogerio,

I might. It would depend if the rate was negotiable.

I've (as I guess most people) have been in the situation where I don't have experience in a field and this stops me getting the jobs that would get me the experience.

I remember trying to break into J2EE. I went for interviews (and often didn't get that far) where I was rejected for having "no J2EE experience". I eventually found an employer who recognised that I was self motivated (I'd recently passed SCJP off my own back), and that I was willing to be negotiable on rate. I remember being in the interview, and saying "I don't have J2EE experience although I am already studying it, but most jobs require you to have J2EE experience already, and I'm just looking for someone to give me that break". I took a lesser salary, but within a year had passed SCWCD and was a useful member of their development team.

For me, at the time, offsetting the salary for the chance of experience and development was worth it. You'll have to weigh that one up for yourself!

Hope that helps,

MG


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Elchin Asgarli
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Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Posts: 222

I totally agree with Mark, it all depends on how motivated to show yourself to learn new things.

And of course an employer would definitely prefer someone with no experience and a certificate over someone with no experience and no certificate


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Tina Ma
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Joined: Nov 29, 2007
Posts: 198
Very true. I had the same experience. I got my first job with a SCJP and no experience as such.If one is really motivated and take up pet projects for himself, like creating your own apps, or working on a website or e-commerce site for a friend, take up some contract assignments online thru various sites, he will gradually gain experience too, and all kinds of experience is counted for in the development-world. Certifications just make you study about concepts which can be applied or is being applied in your daily work. I have SCWCD and am not doing web dev anymore for a year now, and I guess I have forgotten everything about servlets!!


Tina
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Ulf Dittmer
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Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 42263
    
  64
And of course an employer would definitely prefer someone with no experience and a certificate over someone with no experience and no certificate

Gotta disagree with that. There are lots of companies in sizable labor markets that put no value whatsoever in such certificates. In fact, occasionally, they're drawbacks - hiring managers wonder why someone with relevant education and experience would bother with certificates. Not a frequent occurrence, but it does happen.

The point of the SCEA, of course, is that it's meant for professionals with a fair amount of experience, so it's not something a freshly minted college graduate would pursue.
Maneesh Godbole
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Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10451
    
    8

Working as an architect having only the certification is like driving a car having only read the instruction manual.
Would you let such a person drive your Porsche?


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Praful Thakare
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Joined: Feb 10, 2001
Posts: 637
well said Maneesh , I have personally worked with some jr developers in one of my previous jobs, those cleared scjp and scwcd and had no clue about basics when it came to implementation. so in short theory can never replace experience.

-P


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Eoin Li
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Joined: Jul 24, 2003
Posts: 45
No one has experience before, everyone will grow from experience. In my mind, it depends upon company and team to allow you grow and contribute for company. You will make it as long as you keep working on it.
Elchin Asgarli
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Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Posts: 222

Maneesh Godbole wrote:Working as an architect having only the certification is like driving a car having only read the instruction manual.
Would you let such a person drive your Porsche?


Wrong. Reading the instruction material of the car is not the same as having a driving license, and having a license can be compared to having a certificate. So technically you can trust Porsche to a person who just got his licence. In fact you can even trust him more knowing that he will not be overspeeding, afraid to break the rules he just learned ;)
Elchin Asgarli
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Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Posts: 222

Ulf Dittmer wrote:In fact, occasionally, they're drawbacks - hiring managers wonder why someone with relevant education and experience would bother with certificates. Not a frequent occurrence, but it does happen.


I wonder what company or hiring manager would have such a thing on his/her mind. Even if there is someone like this, I am sure you would not want to work for them, because they would be a complete career-blocker for you. If (s)he thinks certificates have no value, and "educated" person would not bother with them, it means the person does not understand the whole issue behind industry certifications, so this is the type of person who believes (s)he is smarter than everyone and knows things better than everyone. And we all know how such people end up...
Lokesh Varma
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Joined: Dec 30, 2009
Posts: 3
@Elchin Asgarli
Well said Asgarli....your explanation made me smile.
Mihai Lihatchi
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 138

I am trying to get SCEA certification now so I understand the problem. However I would not apply for a Architect position , just a Senior Software Engineer .. because it is very difficult to start of as an architect when you are new in the company so most people at least in Romania consider starting as a Senior Developer and after reaching a certain experience within the company actually prove worthy of being an architect.
Of course this is for the people that (like me) think you need coding skills to be a good architect.
Regarding the value of certifications ... my current employer sees them as just theoretical .. that is having no practical relevance(so unfortunately there is no reimbursement for now) ..but for SCEA I disagree , you need to actually think about implementing a solution and have that solution checked (part I might be for beginners but the rest is not) it's just that you need to convince the hiring manager about that.
Even with SCEA passed people look at architects as people with at least 10 years experience (the SCEA recommended experience) and plenty of implemented solutions so they will not hurry to hire a guy with 4 years experience as an architect even if the guy really is brilliant and passed his SCEA with flying colors.





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Kuppusamy Venkatasubramanian
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Joined: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 91
Though certifications do help to get good jobs and endorses one's technical competency, for me, certifications are a way that make me read books and learn about a technology. If i don't buy voucher for exam, the possibility of reading and getting to know about a technology is very less..


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prathap venkata naga yelugula
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 13, 2008
Posts: 243
Hi,
Some people keeping and telling like we have 10+ years of J2EE experiance.
now 2010 , is in 2000 J2EE has that much expertise , to crack a chance to import Industry architechs?


I have seen one resume he mentioned like that he has 15 + years of experiance in Java, J2EE.

java switches in 1995 in Labs? . Is his experiance is correct? Or everybody who keeps 15+ years
of experiance comming from SUN Labs?

The Truth is : The Person who involved effectively in various J2EE projects , can able to think
a solution to new Occuring Real time scenarious.

And Experiance(4 to 6 years) + Certification is Good to face any challenges in Technically and
functionally.

Thanks,
Prathap.
SC[JP,WCD,BCD,EA-1]
Donovan Johnson
Greenhorn

Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 11

Bottom-line is, find away to get some experience, even if it isn't a super complex project. My strategy is going to be volunteer with a company like Groundworks IT or TECHCORPS to help implement a solution for a visible non-profit firm or foundation. Do this two or three times, following the freelancing ideas [elance.com, etc] mentioned in earlier posts after that. Then apply as Sr. Software Engineer or Lead Developer, but at an only slightly reduced salary -- as you now have some experience, particularly in a leadership position. From that point, your are poised to be in a legitimate Application Architect role inside of 5-6 years, start to finish -- possibly less. If you grab you PMP and CITA [from IASA which I think is more relevant for SCEAs] or TOGAF, it should be even easier.

The core difference for me will be I am ditching the PMP for a Six Sigma Black Belt, keeping the CITA and anding an MBA -- when the time comes


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