This week's book giveaway is in the OO, Patterns, UML and Refactoring forum. We're giving away four copies of Refactoring for Software Design Smells: Managing Technical Debt and have Girish Suryanarayana, Ganesh Samarthyam & Tushar Sharma on-line! See this thread for details.
In my opinion, the value of the SCJP is the preparation for it. The test gives incentive and goals to study and pass the test. The test also give reason to play with Java when you run out of ideas. The goal of all this, is of course, to make you a better Java programmer.
Now, having said that, there are those non-java programmers, or worse non-programmers, who just cram for the test, get the certification, and move on. This is a bit silly, as they will quickly forget everything, and the certification will unlikely be defended during the job interview.
Prithvi Sehgal wrote:Learning honestly looks elegant i think so.
If you prepare honestly for SCJP, it can atleast enhance your logical thinking. Another advantage, certifications
are international standards. Will be only helpful, if prepared HONESTLY
Hope this helps,
Very true! SCJP has becoming of no value as everyone score 98% by remembering few standard set of questions!!
but if prepared honestly, the exams are really worth to take as your knowledge and logical thinking improves.
John Pradeep.v wrote:Very true! SCJP has becoming of no value as everyone score 98% by remembering few standard set of questions!!
If you got your SCJP certificate only because you've remembered a standard set of questions, then I can imagine that you don't get any benefit from it. Because if you really don't understand Java, you will quickly be rejected in a job interview if the interviewer finds out.
By the way why you even did the certification, if you don't find any use of it. What was in
your mind, when you were sitting for the examination?
Totally true. Be honest with yourself. Getting a certification is not an issue, but how well and
how honestly you understood the concepts is pretty important. It will definitely out-class you
when you appear for interviews.
The people who interview the candidates are quiet smart enough to crack a difference who earned it
or who just got it by cramming.
If you don't know the basics and some how crammed the exam, and even if you some how (lucky?) managed the interview, you will fail in the real job (project). Memorization or cheating doesn't help you in real life jobs and projects! If you studied hard and passed the exam, you will always value the certificate you got! Certifications are supposed to make you a better programmer, and not just for the sake of name or fame!
kaustubh sharma wrote:Hi I am SCJP 6.0 certified with 98% but couldn'y find any benifit of it. Why They run this certificate.....???
For me, the real benefit was that it gave me an excuse to get exposed to certain uncommon - but very exciting and very useful - areas like the concurrency classes and NIO, introduced in JavaSE 5. Of course, the exam itself doesn't test either of these (which I think is unfortunate), but studying for SCJP gave me an excuse to study and understand and apply such concepts which are many times needed in the real world. I already had 7.5 years of professional experience (5+ years of those spent full time in both core Java and JavaEE) when I took up SCJP, yet in all those years never once had I even looked at concurrency classes or NIO, inspite of working in a vertical where performance and scalability are critical. It was quite embarrassing to myself to be honest. Time is at a premium (many times artificially) in our profession and unfortunately, that can lead to us falling behind on our knowledge and ultimately make us obsolete. I think SCJP and other certifications force us into a schedule to update ourselves constantly. If nothing else, atleast the benefits of knowing collections and threads in detail are worth the effort. As others have already pointed out, the best way is to take your time to prepare thoroughly and in the right spirit.
Having said that, one thing I didn't like about the SCJP are the 'trivial' (my opinion) questions on API method and constructor signatures, or finding some tiny syntax errors. I take the view that, with google and javadocs and source code and IDEs available, why really should we remember the exact method signatures? I wish they'd throw such questions out and instead introduce some more concept based topics into SCJP.
In some cases, the concepts it covers may even be counter productive. For example, I wouldn't like to maintain or debug a program where the SCJP maestro who wrote the code originally, used his/her considerable knowledge of 'short circuiting' / 'non short circuiting' AND operators to code exotic boolean expressions. Such syntactical tricks are easy to miss for a maintenance programmer and don't make his life any easier. Even though the JLS specifies them, they should be kind of not promoted via SCJP which is all about good practices.
That's why, I think the SCJD exam is a good complimentary exam for SCJP. SCJP certifies you'll make a good 'human compiler' for a java program, but SCJD certifies that you're a good programmer. If one really wants to prove credibility as a competent core Java programmer, then SCJD should also be taken up.
From career benefits point of view, I suspect SCJP / SCJD don't have as much value in software companies based in India, as they do in North America or Europe.
Could you please elaborate what do you mean by stating you couldn't find any benefit of the certificate. It didn't help to get more interest from recruiters, or more interviews, or to go through interviews, or it didn't help in the workplace.
I'd love to know of examples when having the certificate actually helped to differentiate yourself and get career benefits.
Joined: Mar 02, 2010
Hi actually the point I want to make here is that in my place here everyone got this certification with 90+ percentage who deals with java but if we talk about the knowledge they're not able to answer basic java question so if this certification not able to certify that a person knows java or not then why are they runnig it??? if it is just to make money or impress the recruiters that this is very pathetic..... hope you all understand it.... May be they can improve the quality or make the exam little tough so that it make more sense.
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
This certification is already very prestigious. I think so people at your side need to upgrade their mental literature
to understand the true worth of certification and how to get maximum advantage out of it. If they don't realize then
i believe they have wasted their money also. It sums up that, neither do they recognize the worth of honesty nor they
value their own hard earned money.
At the end, i believe so, there are such ill brained people in every society. Just seeing them and how their aptitude works,
you cannot really judge and call that why Sun people are running this certification or its pathetic. I do believe you need to
spend some quality time on this forum and see the other part of society who is working hard to earn the certification. That's
what makes java-ranch such a success, because here only those people participate who are worthy enough to know their mindset
and who know how to earn something the right way.
Additionally we all have summed up above, that people sitting in the market are not fools who can't judge between a cheater and
an honest programmer. They are there for years conducting interviews and judging people and it's like a cup of tea for them to
distinguish the bad slot. Again they can get the interviews if they have earned things dishonestly, but they won't move ahead from
step 1 that's the interview.
SCJP is a very prestigious certification and who ever works hard and honestly can tell with pride what difference it made to their
knowledge and how they out-class other in the league. I again will suggest, please spend some quality time on this forum and analyze
the efforts made by people here and such kind of questionnaire won't hurt you.
I would definitely like to ask, what was your experience? How did you earn it? Was it by cramming or paying honest attention to the
Yes, it ALREADY makes a lot of SENSE
Hope this helps,
Joined: Mar 02, 2010
well well well........... I don't want hurt your respect for this prestigeous certification but dear if people knows an alternative from where they can get it easyly for just using it as a purpose to get a job and the society which is running this for just money why stop this kind of activity. If the society has some self respect for it's certificate then they must take some action so that no one like me can target it...
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
There are cheat ways to obtain anything and no-body can stop it. It's the mindset of the society which needs to be improved.
You ask yourself, that what will be the advantage to them if they earn it this way? Lets for suppose if we say, increase the difficulty
level, then again some people will devise one way or the other to pass or crack the exam. It lies within the conscious the difference
between right and wrong.
Like for example Software Piracy is everywhere, no matter how strict we get or whatever, people at least find ways to crack it one
way or other. So again i will say the mindset needs to be improved.
As you say that, people get jobs and all, then they won't get along a long way mate. They will perform average, one way or the other
people can find out, how they got it.
Again, always remember, You make one rule, people will find thousand ways to break it. So improve mental literature, such activities will start getting less.
By the way, what do you mean by no one like you can target it? Do you mean to say your crammed or cheated to pass or just due to people you are saying so?
Hope this helps,
Joined: Mar 02, 2010
hahahha... Buddy if you not want to find any solution for the problem or at least try for it you'll not get any success so don't give the save logic every time ohk you are not like to raise in difficulty fine but at least make make more puzzles or changes the old one can bring a lot change in the exam. But I think no one wants to change it because it is making lot of money plus java is spreading to many. Now it is in the Oracle hand hope they will do something for it.
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
I am giving you the same logic everytime because it makes sense and you are not able to get the very simple logic.
People are smart enough to clear the exam even if difficulty is raised. Software Engineers are brainy people and we
are used to solve the problems even if they are difficult. It's not about money or something. Only way to tell you is that,
even if they raise, there will still be people getting certified in a wrong way. Your problem will still be there and you still
be complaining about the same issue and suggesting, that now Oracle also change something. There are always cheat
way to solve things.
What will you do that time? If even difficulty is raised, pattern is changed, people still be getting certified in a wrong way.
Will you stop complaining that time or your issue will finish?
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
Finally the solution is within your own brain and concious repeating it.
Soon Oracle will change the pattern and within a few months, people will find cheat ways to handle that also.
1- Solution lies within yourself. Within your attitude.
2- You can try promoting good ways to your fellows and make them aware what they are losing by getting certified in the wrong way.
3- Make them aware of the advantages and disadvantages.
4- Report sites which are promoting illegal material. Because after the changes even illegal things will still be there.
5- Make your society more aware about the right culture.
Plus, you are taking this discussion more on the personal level. I am giving you the solution, think over it yourself also.
Thank you for wishing me luck.
I am seeking employment as a Service-Oriented Architecture (SOA) / Java Developer. I have over three years of SOA Experience, however I do not have actual work experience as a Java / J2EE Developer? Hence, I am looking to get the Sun Java Certifications: "Sun Certified Java Programmer Certification" (SCJP), Sun Certified Web Services Developer Certification (SCDJWS) and Sun Certified Enterprise Architect (SCEA) Would you agree that obtaining the Sun Java Certifications would be helpful in obtaining employment as Service-Oriented Architecture (SOA) / J2 EE Enterprise Developer / Analyst position? If so, please reply back to this post and explain from a Java Developer perspective or from a management perspective, as to why such Java certifications are beneficial in accessing a candidate's Java skills for a SOA position.
Don Kurtz wrote: Would you agree that obtaining the Sun Java Certifications would be helpful in obtaining employment as Service-Oriented Architecture (SOA) / J2 EE Enterprise Developer / Analyst position?
Of all the topics to respond to, this is one of the few ones not in the mainstream -- but I'll take a shot at an answer. The basis of this topic is that since "most" people who get the certification cheat to get it (unproven claim for this topic), the certification is useless.
My response is, if a candidate did cheat to get the certification, then the certification is indeed, useless. And to answer your question, would be no help whatsoever. The reasoning is, it is very unlikely that the candidate will survive the technical interview, as he/she will not possess the knowledge held by someone who earned the certification.
Just want to add one thing is when a company required certificate for a post then in such case a person with java knowledge who can't have that because of some financial condition can't apply for it then what you say in such case...
Kaustubh Sharma wrote:Hi I am SCJP 6.0 certified with 98% but couldn'y find any benifit of it. Why They run this certificate.....???
It (or no other certificate) will not benefit you in the direct way get the job like our degree (BE, MCA) do. Certifications are for your extra and good/sound knowledge about the subject/topic. It will 100% help you to short out of your resume in resumes of same profile And I'm sure, you can clear the interview easily if you really get it with hard work and if you didn't buy/purchase it , I hope you didn’t. But when you are searching a job in market, nobody will hire you to work only for single filed (like SCJP is for Core Java), you need to satisfy the interviewer in other fields also like JSP, Servlets, EJB etc etc. Right now, you are not recognizing the value of SCJP, later you will recognize it...but its your technical skills matter more than the certifications. Certifications are just to show your extra capabilities...
I suppose that it is possible to cheat in studying for the SCJP or any exam. I also understand that a person could be a poor programmer but a good exam taker. Nevertheless, having been on both sides of the hiring process many times over the past couple decades, I think there is some value in the exam.
As a job seeker, I took it for two reasons. First, I knew that preparing properly would fortify my knowledge of the language and core libraries. Second, my resume shows that I have plenty of programming experience, having shipped more than two dozen titles. But none were in Java, so I wanted the cert to show prospective Java studios that I can speak their language and am serious about it.
From a hiring perspective, a resume is just a foot in the door. Employers use the information on resumes--education, job experience, and miscellany like certificates--as a quick way to screen clearly unqualified candidates. An SCJP is a way to avoid being weeded out as "doesn't know Java." But after that employers usually conduct phone interviews for further screening and then generally half a day to a full day of interviews including white-board problems and possibly their own written exams, etc. It is hard to cram for all of that, if the interviewers are any good. I have seen a lot of people with great looking resumes who obviously didn't have the programming chops. But that always showed itself in the interviewing process. Finally, if someone has gotten through all of that but still can't program well enough, employers usually have ways to terminate the employment.
Personally, I only apply for jobs I think I can do. Getting a job I'm not qualified for would lead to a pretty miserable experience, I expect. So why would I cheat to get there? I suppose that means that I'll miss out on some jobs because people who cheat on exams cut in front of me, but I've been doing OK so far and I expect the SCJP to open a few more doors.
Now if you are asking whether the SCJP exam measures the right stuff, aside from how that stuff is learned, I'd say yes, pretty much. Sure there's a bit of the "human compiler" problem, but if you can't generally spot incorrect code when you are told to look for it, you'll probably have more trouble interpreting compiler error messages in real life. Or you may have more trouble finding errors that the compiler can't catch. If you can catch most of the compiler errors you are probably detail-oriented, which is a good trait for a programmer. As for the libraries, most of the API questions I encountered basically wanted to make sure I knew which classes are appropriate for which tasks, and since the exam is restricted to the primary methods of rather core parts of the library, I don't think an experienced Java programmer should be looking that stuff up all of the time. Sure, I crammed a bit for the exam myself. Will I remember all of the APIs I memorized six months from now? No. But if I continue to work with Java, I'll know some of them like the back of my hand and even the rest will come back to me faster when I do look them up than if I had never had to study them.
sachin burange : Nothing will change in your life discussing it is good or not
Don't wait that the world will change by itself. Some efforts are required and from my side I think that discussing is the first step for it.
Joined: Oct 13, 2009
It's always good to open a discussion and discuss it.
A programmer should be expressive enough to express their thoughts and share the experiences.
There are many juniors around who don't know the true worth of certification, so for the interested
audience, such kind of discussions should be opened.
I can't believe i just completed my 500 messages..Hurrah to me
Well finally the thing or benifit I want from scjp in not the job or money the thing is it not ensure that some one has knowledge or not and we are here dicuessing it because me made the exam more better and system more errorless so that it ensures that a person having this certificate really has the knowledge, from my side I want to make this ceritificate a less rare so that only one way to get it is to get knowledge now how to do that is the topic of the discussion...
Kindly let us know how can a person pass SCJP6 without the knowledge of exam objectives. I have appeared the exam recently only and around 80% of the questions are pure code based and NO BODY can answer those questions correctly without knowledge I have never seen those questions in any of the mock exams I did. And I am sure the question bank database is huge and that is the reason different people are geeting different set of questions. Simply memorizing all JAVA API's and 1000 mock questions CANNOT help you pass the exam unless you know the objectives very well. The exams are being conducted in a professional way (at least in prometric centers in US which I know). If you see anything otherwise why don't you post it here or inform the authorities so that they can take necessary action? This is what everyone should do from their side.
Dear Kaustubh Sharma, who said you Knowledge is not required to pass any test or its your perception. Are you beginner or an intelligent dumb? Did you believe or buy degree/certificates. Hope, you know the meaning of one word that is called "HARD WORK".
for the greater part of the past year, I've been applying for jobs as a Junior Programmer. Some companies require a degree, some don't, but of all those that don't, they look for the necessary skills. A Sun Certificate is about the best thing you could put on your resume in that area, and just about any interview I went on, it was mentioned as a must for any medior/senior java developer - something you should do when you're a junior developer.
Now I've found a job as an instructor because they noticed that I clearly knew what I was talking about, and my employer also expects me to get a Sun Certificate. Don't get me wrong, even if my employer didn't care, I'd get it out of my own pocket, because I KNOW for certain and I have seen FIRST HAND that it opens a whole lot of doors for people who lack a bachelor's or master's degree, but do have the programming skills.
And then I'm only talking about conversations, I imagine it adds a whole lot of salt to your resume.
So, that's where I'm coming from. And I agree, it would have a lot less value if it wasn't earned. Just imagine yourself in a conversation with a Java Team Leader about your capabilities as a programmer... Won't take him long to notice that you're no ace.
I may not get the greatest score, I may not even pass, who knows... But what I do know, is that when I have my certificate, any future job interviews I have, I will be a confident cookie. And that's half the battle.