If you reading this post i know you guys have the real passion of SE...But software engineers long working hours plus the stress...because its not like writing a book and deliver..when errors comes developers have to spend hours for recover and that time is not calculate in project deliver (and management care little) and the poor developer has to find his own time..mostly week ends or stay office till 10-11 pm (at least no bonus). Its discouraging to see what managers do and get the same benefits as tech leads (development people)..even funny thing is developers have to report to those guys those managers primary skill is speak good English...where developers have to sit in front of computer until late... and after go home they need to read some books or articles if the developer dont have experience with working technology..life would be more simple if developers do a MBA and move in to management i guess as a PM or what ever..what you guys thinks..read this article also
Even now SE don't even get paid well because if you met 10 people and out of them 6 are SE's..:-\
Bear Bibeault wrote:
I've only worked one job where more than 40 hours per week was required; and I knew that before-hand.
Good for you Bear..usaully in asian countries (specially india and sri lanka..now all major clients in Europe and USA invest in those two countries because low cost and high intellectuality developers...well but the company only gives us US$ 1.5 for hour and bill the client US$23 for hour and thats for junior engineer..really you wont believe even i didn't believe until i saw the project cost doc ) its mandatory 9*5=45 and practically 12*5=60 hours per week.. by the way i just thought i will never quit SE because its my passion and i like to be an intellectual employee in my life rather than being a routing job guy who not make use of his brain..best for me is to move to a better country where good working conditions and good pay for SE.
Let's be fair to management too. Management is NOT easier than development. It is different. Responses to your post:
A good manager does care that you are working extra hours. In some cases it is because they want you to be happy and productive. In the sweatshop mentality, it is because you could be getting more work done and not losing time on this project.
Managers do not "get" to work less hours than you. They get to work different hours. Managers tend to work off hours via BlackBerry and on conference calls. And I imagine if they are working for a US/Europe customer, they are talking to them outside of the office.
Worrying about what can go wrong and how to solve problems, remove dependencies, negotiate with the customer is plenty intellectual
"what they do is mostly preparing time lines and asking what are blocking issues" - and then what? Surely someone doesn't get paid to create a list of issues without thinking and trying to make things go smoothly
"the only think those managers know is speak good English" - don't devalue this skill. Communication is important
I am not a manager because I choose not to be. I have enough of an appreciation for what management does that I respect them though.
As noted by Jeanne and others, there are some generalizations here that are simply not true. You cannot term all apples bad because the one you ate was rotten. Would it be fair for your manager to think all developers are bad because one of them introduced a bug into the system ?
Perhaps you are stuck in the wrong job ? Working 12 hours a day for a bad manager does not sound great. You may be drawing another generalization here by juxtaposing your situation with that of every employee that works as a software engineer.
Harshana Dias wrote:
...well but the company only gives us US$ 1.5 for hour and bill the client US$23 for hour and thats for junior engineer..
Yes, that is normal the world over, and it is not actually the problem that you think it is.
The reality is that for most companies that provide services, the main (only?) income is from the people being outsourced. However any normal business has a lot of other expenses - rent, equipment leasing, non-leased items (e.g. desks, chairs, lights (many of which have to be replaced every few years even though they are not leased)), heating, cooling, other electricity, water, garbage disposal, cleaning costs, internet connectivity, telephone connectivity, HR staff, legal staff, management staff, administrative staff, sales people, system administrations, off-site backup storage costs, legal costs, banking costs, insurance fees, ....
Take anything out of the equation and all of a sudden you will find that you either do not have the capability of working, or you do not have the work to do. So the difference between the $23 being charged out and the $1.50 being paid to the developer is not going into managers pockets - most of it is going to keeping the business running.
On some of your other points -
It has been a while since I worked at a job that required more than 40 hours a week. That was a relic of the '70s and '80s. Management has moved on from that broken model.
The article you referenced had an extremely valuable point: "MONEY IS NOT EVERYTHING! THINK about what you REALLY want to do in life". It is my belief that people who are passionate about their job will be good at it, which in turn leads them to the better jobs (and a side effect is that they get good pay). Whereas those who get into software engineering because of the "great pay" or the "great opportunities for travel" tend to be mediocre at the job because they do not have the passion for it. And since they are mediocre they tend to end up in mediocre jobs with a mediocre pay.
when errors comes developers have to spend hours for recover and that time is not calculate in project deliver
TDD, proper integration testing, and proper regression testing should result in few bugs getting out the door. And all this testing should be included in the project costs. Then you only need to allocate a tiny fraction of ongoing development time to fixing what few bugs did get out the door.
Jeanne wrote: Management is NOT easier than development. It is different.
I agree with that 100%. There is a different skill set needed to be a manager, and it is so different that most engineers cannot understand it until they try to be a manager themselves.
thank you for your post...i do agree with you guys..i have know a good PM from my last project and she was like a mother...by the way working late hours screw me up because after going home how can i practice soul sister from my guitar..or watch the TV series where i download recently or go to the gym.. all we can do is after going home with tired eyes (i hate this bloody monitors, there should be a law that every IT company should gives LCD's for there employees) is sleep and come again in the morning to work..work should be limited either 8 to 5 or 9 to 6..rest of the time need to enjoy the life...the problem in SE job is you cant have fix working hours like a another profession..bank or what ever
Harshana Dias wrote:thank you for your post...i do agree with you guys..i have know a good PM from my last project and she was like a mother...by the way working late hours screw me up because after going home how can i practice soul sister from my guitar..or watch the TV series where i download recently or go to the gym.. all we can do is after going home with tired eyes (i hate this bloody monitors, there should be a law that every IT company should gives LCD's for there employees) is sleep and come again in the morning to work..work should be limited either 8 to 5 or 9 to 6..rest of the time need to enjoy the life...the problem in SE job is you cant have fix working hours like a another profession..bank or what ever
In today's world, if you are not willing to do this, then there is someone else to do it. So do it the way it is. You will one day become a manager too... atleast because of the frustration as a SE and your experience...
Grt..... I have been working since 3 yrs in a top IT Indian co. To tell you frankly, i have no proper work from past 1.5 yrs, in begining i was happy with very less work, but now i am frustrated to go to office without having to do work, for this reason i am searching for jobs outside my organization. I have never been in situations mentioned by you folks, working long hours... wish to experience that ......