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Its so rude and de motivating that HR dont prefer freshers in s/w programming

Vishal Hegde
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Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1055

Its so rude and de motivating that HR dont prefer freshers in s/w programming.

Why are they so rude... why cant they just give us a chance,train us

Just because of this most of people wind up changing their Jobs


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Henry Wong
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Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18840
    
  40


You can't take it personally. You have to remember from their point of view, they are swamped with candidates. Many due to the high unemployment rate. Many who are delaying retirement due to the market. etc.

It pretty brutal out there, even for experienced folks.

Henry


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Devesh H Rao
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Joined: Feb 09, 2002
Posts: 687

Vishal Hegde wrote:Its so rude and de motivating that HR dont prefer freshers in s/w programming.

Why are they so rude... why cant they just give us a chance,train us

Just because of this most of people wind up changing their Jobs


We have had a situation when we hired 3 trainees, 2 left within a week of the training getting over.
We still went ahead and hired a batch of 7 trainees, 4 left within a month of the training.

Some of them didn't even bother informing about the decision to leave. They just stopped coming in. Our company does not believe in bonds which makes it even simpler for people to just stop coming over.

We have stopped hiring trainees henceforth as the effort put into training them is not worth the juice.
John Eipe
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Joined: May 23, 2008
Posts: 215
It's not always true, some companies prefer experienced programmers. But there are still may Multi National companies who hire freshers and also train them.


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Janeice DelVecchio
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Joined: Sep 14, 2009
Posts: 1665
    
  11

I too am looking for an entry level job....
I bought the book "Land the Tech Job You Love" -- one of the more helpful books I've read. Read it and absorb.

Create a professional looking portfolio of your work. Other people don't. This will set you apart from the crowd at an interview.

Getting an interview is kindof a numbers game. Apply, apply, apply. Something you're not qualified to do, but think the company looks cool? Find the name of someone in HR and get them on the phone. Make your resume complete, professional, and up to date. Proofread, reread, have other folks read, get advice.

Put your resume on job sites. People will email and call. Mostly for stuff you can't do. Use these opportunities to network with recruiters and get on their good side. Send them your resume and portfolio.

Mostly, keep at it.


When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
arulk pillai
Author
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Joined: May 31, 2007
Posts: 3220
Agree with Janeice. It is a very competitive world out there. If you stay motivated, and find ways to stand out from the rest, you can open more doors.

Lots of things can be self-taught to build your confidence, attitude, and technical skills.


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Sumit Bisht
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Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 329

Janeice, could you please elaborate about 'portfolio', please.I consulted with few people about this, and according to them, it means copies of whatever the resume seems to be saying (certificates). Is it correct ?
Does'nt previous work and undertaken projects come under 'Work Experience' portion of a resume?
Also, do a fresher needs to interact with the HR staff only or can networking with tech. leads directly too influence hiring decisions when suitable opportunities arise ?
thanks
Luke Kolin
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Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Sumit Bisht wrote:Janeice, could you please elaborate about 'portfolio', please.I consulted with few people about this, and according to them, it means copies of whatever the resume seems to be saying (certificates). Is it correct ?


No, it means examples of your work. Most other creative types (artists, copywriters, etc) have a portfolio where they can show examples of things they have done. It's a bit more challenging as a software author to create this since much work is done for hire and isn't published or available for redistribution, but this is where either open source or personal projects can come in.

Cheers!

Luke
Janeice DelVecchio
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Joined: Sep 14, 2009
Posts: 1665
    
  11

Sumit Bisht wrote:Janeice, could you please elaborate about 'portfolio', please.I consulted with few people about this, and according to them, it means copies of whatever the resume seems to be saying (certificates). Is it correct ?
Does'nt previous work and undertaken projects come under 'Work Experience' portion of a resume?


Here's some elaboration for you...

1. Everyone has a resume. Everyone, their brother, their neighbor.... everyone. A portfolio is something not everyone has. This sets you apart from every other entry level person out there looking for a job.

2. Take this for example:
resume wrote:Created a Java program using a Swing GUI that performs calculation of gas mileage. This program performs entry validation. Blah blah on and on for a full few lines about this great program. People should believe it because it's in this fancy looking resume.


What is the hiring manager going to do at the interview? Ask you to describe it? What do you say? "Ahhh.... it was this cool program I wrote in school. It did stuff. I designed the GUI and it looked good."

Riiiiight.... but if you had 3 pages in your portfolio outlining it, you just whip it out, open it up and say:
at the interview wrote:(pointing to section of code) Well here's the section where I did the input validation. As you can see, it checks to make sure the odometer is greater than the last set of input. I use a try/catch block for proper event handling. And on this page, (turn page) I have a snapshot of what the GUI looks like.


Now the hiring manager sees you've taken TIME to create this document (that you give to him so he can take notes on it), it looks professional (like he is only to assume your first assignment on the job will be), and it SHOWS stuff that telling can't.

People come out of college and can't write programs.... or know what exception handling is..... or apply for a JDBC job and dunno what a database is. It happens. Not only does the portfolio showcase some of what you can do (your BEST WORK), this opens up a whole new realm of questions that the manager can ask you. And you'll know the answers because it's YOUR STUFF.

Here's some internet sites I used when creating my portfolio:
http://grok-code.com/58/the-power-of-a-programming-portfolio/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/299911/how_to_create_an_effective_programming.html?cat=31

You can look at other people's portfolios online and search google for more ideas/guidelines.

My portfolio (which I spent hours compiling) has a nice cover page, a page intro for each project I included, screenshots, code snippets, and my resume at the end. It's about 20 pages, full color, and I had it bound at Kinko's and covered with vinyl. Each portfolio cost me about $20. I am incredibly proud of it and put clips of my favorite work in it. I am glad to give it out to hiring managers because I know it will help me get my foot in the door. You don't have to give it out if you're not really interested or whatever.
Arjun Srivastava
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Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

hi folks,
Recently i have heard one disappointing information from one of my colleagues or you can a senior to me.
according to him,i should not show off my java certification or any other professional certification in my resume during the campus interview where there is only HR interview(technical not to be done here) otherwise if i wrote about certification they will hire an extra inerview for me (HR+technical).
what you guys think what a fresher should do in that case?


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ryan williams
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 30, 2010
Posts: 6
What is a fresher? I've never heard this word before as a noun.
Arjun Srivastava
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

ryan williams wrote:What is a fresher? I've never heard this word before as a noun.

can you see me laughing right now
If you are serious then,Fresher means naive,novice or a new comer.
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Arjun Srivastava wrote:can you see me laughing right now


To be fair, it's not a term I've ever heard used outside of India.

Cheers!

Luke
Arjun Srivastava
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

Luke Kolin wrote:
To be fair, it's not a term I've ever heard used outside of India.

yeah, may be you are right.
I think the right word is new comer i was trying to wrote.
ryan williams
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 30, 2010
Posts: 6
I was being serious, wasn't sure if it had some official meaning. Thanks for the reply.
Aneesh Vijendran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 125
Arjun Srivastava wrote:hi folks,
Recently i have heard one disappointing information from one of my colleagues or you can a senior to me.
according to him,i should not show off my java certification or any other professional certification in my resume during the campus interview where there is only HR interview(technical not to be done here) otherwise if i wrote about certification they will hire an extra inerview for me (HR+technical).
what you guys think what a fresher should do in that case?


Arjun - you should be more confident after you've got those certifications.

Cheers
AV


Cheers
Aneesh
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18840
    
  40

Arjun Srivastava wrote:
according to him,i should not show off my java certification or any other professional certification in my resume during the campus interview where there is only HR interview(technical not to be done here) otherwise if i wrote about certification they will hire an extra inerview for me (HR+technical).
what you guys think what a fresher should do in that case?


What's wrong with an extra interview? Is it going to take too much of your time?

Henry
Arjun Srivastava
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

Henry Wong wrote:
What's wrong with an extra interview? Is it going to take too much of your time?

yeah,why should i go for an extra test to get a job as oppose to others who are just giving only HR ,i am scared if get failed in that an extra technical interview.
if i don't mention the certification in my resume(for that specific campus interview),then i can satisfy them only with HR, but again where my certification comes in use.
Aneesh Vijendran
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 125
Arjun Srivastava wrote:
Henry Wong wrote:
What's wrong with an extra interview? Is it going to take too much of your time?

yeah,why should i go for an extra test to get a job as oppose to others who are just giving only HR ,i am scared if get failed in that an extra technical interview.
if i don't mention the certification in my resume(for that specific campus interview),then i can satisfy them only with HR, but again where my certification comes in use.


If I were to interview you, just because of your lack of confidence I would rejected you (So would be a lot of others)

The first and basic thing you should posess (rather than any technical struff) is self confidence.
Arjun Srivastava
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

Aneesh Vijendran wrote:
If I were to interview you, just because of your lack of confidence I would rejected you (So would be a lot of others)
The first and basic thing you should posess (rather than any technical struff) is self confidence.

LOL,yeah you are right in some way.These two things(attitude and self confidence) are indispensable to get any job whether you are technically ahead of others or not.
what you will do if you would be in my place?
you would choose (HR) or (HR+technical)?
ryan williams
Greenhorn

Joined: Mar 30, 2010
Posts: 6
If you feel good about yourself, the more exposure you get in the company (with more interviews), the better off you should be. That's my opinion anyway.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18840
    
  40

Arjun Srivastava wrote:
yeah,why should i go for an extra test to get a job as oppose to others who are just giving only HR ,i am scared if get failed in that an extra technical interview.
if i don't mention the certification in my resume(for that specific campus interview),then i can satisfy them only with HR, but again where my certification comes in use.


There are a few ways to look at this....

1. You are in a suit. You probably had to wait a while. And the rest of the day is probably wasted. Why not take an extra interview? It's better than going home to watch TV.

2. Not all interviews are the same. And the first technical interview is far from the hardest. If you can't pass that, then it is unlikely that you will pass the hard one... And you don't have to waste another day in a suit to find out...

3. It's practice. The more interviews that you do, the more you learn on what and what not to do.

4. It's another chance to talk to someone from the company. Another chance to interview them... so you can decide whether you want to work for them or not.

5. And how do you know it's an extra interview? Maybe people with certs get onto a different track, which short-circuits some future interview?

Henry
Luke Kolin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Posts: 336
Arjun Srivastava wrote:yeah,why should i go for an extra test to get a job as oppose to others who are just giving only HR ,i am scared if get failed in that an extra technical interview.


Or you might, after doing your technical interview, impress them and get hired at some level above the average fresher. If your goal is to avoid extra work and risk, I probably wouldn't want to hire you.

Cheers!

Luke
Kr Manish
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 30, 2010
Posts: 138
Arjun Srivastava wrote:hi folks,
Recently i have heard one disappointing information from one of my colleagues or you can a senior to me.
according to him,i should not show off my java certification or any other professional certification in my resume during the campus interview where there is only HR interview(technical not to be done here) otherwise if i wrote about certification they will hire an extra inerview for me (HR+technical).
what you guys think what a fresher should do in that case?


I personally think your senior was just blowing hot air. There does not seem to be any logic in the statement that if you show certification, you have to pass an extra technical interview ! So they are ready to take you with just HR interview, but will make it harder for you if you show the certification. No logic what so ever. Buddy, thousands of people will say thousands of things. YOU have to choose what to believe and what not to !

I personally think, not much emphasis is there on certification but on actual work experience. But since you are a fresher showing a work experience is always better. Shows you are proactive.

All the best. And be wise, don't just believe anything that people say.


You know what I am saying ?
J Miller
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2010
Posts: 67
I know the frustration you're feeling. A few years ago, I graduated college, and moved to a bigger city to get some development work. When you looked online there were "entry level" jobs EVERYWHERE. Once I got here and started applying for them, I learned that "entry level" actually meant "2-3 years experience", go figure. I ended up taking a job in tech support for a large company that I knew did software development. After a couple years, I made enough contacts to land a developer job with that company.

It sucks to have to do that, but I know quite a few people that it's worked for. Once you get your foot in the door and show them that you're a hard-worker and a quick-learner, it's easier to move within the company. Good luck to you.
Tim Holloway
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Joined: Jun 25, 2001
Posts: 16065
    
  21

ryan williams wrote:What is a fresher? I've never heard this word before as a noun.


As far as I know, it's just slang for "freshman". While we normally discourage the use of words and abbreviations not formally sanctioned by Her Majesty, the term is pretty obvious here and I can't really think of anything that serves better. Although since a lot of old-time IT people in the US don't have formal college degrees or even certs :eek: , it's perhaps a little too ironic to use a word that most commonly invokes university age for use in the wider world.

I practically had to threaten violence before I could actually get an HR department to pass me on to someone truly qualified to rate my technical potential, so I truly sympathise. Doubly so, since my wife finally managed to break into the field herself and was really demoralized by the effort.

Sadly, it's only a little better once you're in. Then they start discarding CVs because they're demanding 7 years experience with Oracle 10g and you'd got 11 with Mysql, even though at least 80% of what you need to know to work with one also applies to the other. Or because you have the requisite Oracle experience (um.... yeah), but not 3 years experience with WebSphere Portal version whatever. Or because your experience is with Oracle 11 and not 10g.

As you can see, I have very little respect for the traditional hiring process. :banghead:


Customer surveys are for companies who didn't pay proper attention to begin with.
J Miller
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2010
Posts: 67
What I always enjoyed were the job listings that read like laundry lists.

Applicant should have 40 years experience in:
- C++
- C#
- Java
- VIsual Basic
- HTML
- T-SQL
- BASIC
- COBOL
- Ruby
- PHP
- .NET
- and on and on and on


They want you to have experience with every language created, it's insane. The job I have read kind of like that. I figured it's worth a shot and went for it. Half the time, the hiring manager doesn't know exactly what they need so they throw everything up there.
R. Grimes
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Joined: Aug 23, 2009
Posts: 42
When I was in college, I remember being told, "Just get your degree in Computer Science and companies will be lined up to hire you." I could tell that was a lie because of the students I saw graduating and unable to get their first job. So, in my sophomore year, I went to my advisor and asked if he could get me an internship where I would work for free in exchange for experience. He did so, and after six months of working for free, an opening in the same company came up, and they hired me. Even if they hadn't, I would have had a valuable commodity that other graduates didn't - experience.

My friends told me that I was an idiot to work for free. But, I was soon working in my chosen field, while some of them were still washing dishes.

Companies want experience, far more than they care about your degree. You see, your having a degree doesn't tell me, as an employer, if you have an ounce of logic, ambition, or the ability to think abstractly and produce a working system. It doesn't even tell me if you did the school work yourself. It just tells me that you got through several years of college. But, I have no basis upon which to judge if you have the mind and heart for this profession.

No company owes it to you to spend their money and potentially get nothing in return while you're in training for several months until you get to a point that you can actually start producing something of value. This is especially true when experience often shows that, after they train you and give you experience, such employees often start looking for more money at another company. So, the first company spends the money to train you, and the next company is the one that benefits.

So, the onus is on you to prove that you have the attributes they are looking for, and why it's to their advantage to give you a shot. You must make it as risk-free for them as possible.

Ron Grimes
Jeanne Boyarsky
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Posts: 30537
    
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Arjun,
Going back to your question, your goal isn't just to get a job, even it appears that way at the time. It is to get a job doing interesting work or gaining experience or getting paid more or something like that. Even if your cert gives you an "extra" technical interview that others don't get, that would increase the chances of you getting a better project or spending less time on the bench. Having that exposure to a technical person and not just HR is a good thing.

And on Ryan's question about "fresher", it's not a term we use in the United States. We use "entry level". I remember the first time I asked what "fresher" and "lakhs" meant. Both are English words, but ones I didn't know because they weren't used in the US. I only mention this because it is helpful to show patience when someone asks. They aren't trying to joke or tease or anything. They are really just trying to learn a new word.


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Arjun Srivastava
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Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

Thank you guys and jeanne for your valuable suggestion and help.
It was really a great and helpful discussion for me!!
And i will keep in mind the things you told me.
Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1055

Henry Wong wrote:
You can't take it personally. You have to remember from their point of view, they are swamped with candidates. Many due to the high unemployment rate. Many who are delaying retirement due to the market. etc.

It pretty brutal out there, even for experienced folks.

Henry


Henry , I totally agree with you ..But what if you were stuck under such conditions..wouldnt you take it personally in that case?
Lester Burnham
Rancher

Joined: Oct 14, 2008
Posts: 1337
If I wanted to be mean, I'd just say: Suck it up; real life is not a boarding school. But I won't

In addition to everything else already mentioned above, you need to look at it from the company perspective: it's not in their best interest to take someone on that doesn't fit in with what they're looking for (at least not as long as there are enough other candidates that might fit in). Of course it's personal in the sense that *you personally* got rejected. But it's not personal in the sense that the company could care less about the person they're hiring, as long as she fits into their profile.

What's more, there are millions of companies, each one with their own unique ideas of how to build up staff. What's amazing is not that some of them would reject a particular person, what's amazing is that a particular person should find a company that's a good fit where she's looking to find one.
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18840
    
  40

Vishal Hegde wrote:
Henry , I totally agree with you ..But what if you were stuck under such conditions..wouldnt you take it personally in that case?


Agree with Lester. When I said "don't take it personally", I meant from the company's standpoint, it is not personal.... but yeah, if you want to be mad at the situation, then feel free to do so.

A bit of warning though.... during an interview, enthusiasm shows. And it may affect the interview. If you get too mad at the situation, it may come out during the interview -- so be careful.

Henry
 
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