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Rise Against Corruption Anna Hazzare

Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1056

Hi,

It feels so great to see Anna following the Non-Violence Mechanism to eradicate Corruption from the System and all Indians following it...

Its like Mahatma Gandhi reborn again. I hope that Lokpal Bill get approved by the Govt.

Proud to be an Indian


http://www.lifesbizzare.blogspot.com || OCJP:81%
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Note: Don't be surprised if this thread gets deleted if any of the moderators feels this is becoming too meaningful

As much as I respect Anna Hazare, I do not really approve of the way things are going. Last time we gave in to emotional blackmail of one person, it cost us 55 Crore.
India is a Democracy. If you want to make things happen your way, nothing stops you from standing up for elections. Of course you need lots of money or lots of fame. Anna already has the latter. I do not oppose what Anna is trying to do, but I cannot condone the way he is going about it.

I have a few question to all Anna's supporters.
1) Do you vote
2) Do you always think and vote
3) Have you ever broken any traffic rules and got away by paying an "unofficial fine"?

[How to ask questions] [Donate a pint, save a life!] [Onff-turn it on!]
Sridhar Santhanakrishnan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 20, 2007
Posts: 317
I agree with Maneesh. The intentions are good, but I cannot help but condone how Anna is going with it and the media circus it has become. Its also unfair on Anna's part to use the my-way-or-the-highway policy.

Atleast he's not Baba Ramdev.
Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1056

Maneesh Godbole wrote:

I cannot condone the way he is going about it.

I have a few question to all Anna's supporters.
1) Do you vote
2) Do you always think and vote
3) Have you ever broken any traffic rules and got away by paying an "unofficial fine"?


Yes Maneesh

I do vote it was my first vote...so took advice from my dad before voting

Never I have never broken any traffic rules as i use public transportation

But atleast someone did stand up against corruption ,dont you think and people all over India Supporting lokpal Bill and also yestrday they showed their support by switching off the Lights all over India for 2 hrs

Democratic means for the people and by the people and if people all over India is supporting this Bill , I see no harm in this
Saurabh Pillai
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 509
If you look at the situation from 30,000 feet, All Anna asking is, everybody (including Prime Minister) should be held liable for corruption. UPA Government should be fine with this. It is win-win situation.
Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1056

Saurabh Pillai wrote:If you look at the situation from 30,000 feet, All Anna asking is, everybody (including Prime Minister) should be held liable for corruption. UPA Government should be fine with this. It is win-win situation.



Yes and it should be
I hope you all actually had the time to go through the draft bill at least once: http://www.lokpalbillconsu​ltation.org/docs/lokpalbil​l2_2.pdf


Also do have a look on the below mentioned URL ,it will only take few Minutes.This is not only for an Indian Citizen but to all the users Worldwide
https://www.facebook.com/lokpalpoll?sk=app_176217385757369
Ankit Garg
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 03, 2008
Posts: 9317
    
  17

I completely support what Anna Hazare is standing up for. One might argue that his ways are not correct but sometimes you have to do such things to get the government's attention. The Indian government is becoming like a dictatorial leadership in the lack of a strong opposition party. For instance look at this statement made by Rahul Gandhi, is he trying to say that the government has given up? There were many highly stupid comments made by congress party members recently which one way or the other meant that we'll do whatever we want. Like the comments made by Manish Tiwari. He's saying Anna is also corrupt, but why is the government blaming others of corruption instead of taking steps against corruption. Why are they not addressing the real problem instead of playing the blaming game is beyond my understanding...


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Rahul Sudip Bose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 637

He might be wrong about some things, but has anyone managed to bring all the people together (and that too peacefully) and focus attention on the demon of corruption ?
The least we can do is show our anger and support for anti-corruption at the sites of protest (if present) in our city, even if it is for a small amount of time.

Good Bless India, God Bless us all.

SCJP 6. Learning more now.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

@Ankit,
Who do you think is responsible for sending these people to Parliament in the first place? You, me, us!!! That's why I asked how many of us vote.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

I was tipped off to this story here in MD. But its got legs. There was an article in the New York Times on the topic.

Sadly, I think all countries have some corruption. In the US we just call it campaign contributions.
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18985
    
    8

Pat Farrell wrote:Sadly, I think all countries have some corruption. In the US we just call it campaign contributions.


But at least where you and I live (the US and Canada), if you want to get a driver's licence, you just go down to the office and take the test. You don't have to pay the examiner a little bit extra to make sure you get a passing score. And if you want to get your new house connected to the city water system, you call up the city and they will (eventually) make that happen. You don't have to pay the guy at city hall a couple of hundred bucks to get it to happen this year rather than in 2014.

But if I understand correctly, this sort of thing happens all the time in India.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Pat Farrell wrote:
In the US we just call it campaign contributions.

Isn't there a legal cap? Oh ok wait. I think I see what you are saying.

I have always wondered. What do these people do with all this money? I mean if I hit the jackpot, I would buy an island (with WiFi of course), upgrade myself to the latest fastest lightest Mac, build myself a 2 room house, a bedroom and a "everything else room", fill it with books, a rocking chair, a nice music system, a side table with the choicest whisky, a labrador and a bicycle to roam around the island. How much would it cost? A million?

And look at these guys.
Mary Chellapa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2011
Posts: 93
Pat Farrell wrote:I was tipped off to this story here in MD. But its got legs. There was an article in the New York Times on the topic.

Sadly, I think all countries have some corruption. In the US we just call it campaign contributions.


Corruption is everywhere , agreed, but at least it does not affect your everyday things.


Mary
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Maneesh Godbole wrote:
Pat Farrell wrote:
In the US we just call it campaign contributions.

Isn't there a legal cap? Oh ok wait. I think I see what you are saying.

I have always wondered. What do these people do with all this money? I mean if I hit the jackpot, I would buy an island (with WiFi of course), upgrade myself to the latest fastest lightest Mac, build myself a 2 room house, a bedroom and a "everything else room", fill it with books, a rocking chair, a nice music system, a side table with the choicest whisky, a labrador and a bicycle to roam around the island. How much would it cost? A million?

And look at these guys.


I'd have to have a three room house, so my wife could have her own room too. But I agree that once you get to a certain number of millions of dollars, why worry about more.

Sure, the US has legal caps, and lots of lawyers who know how to legally get around them. They argue that money to politicians is speech, and we have free speech. Sigh.

If I'm 75 when I get the island, etc. there will also be a box of cigars next to the choice whiskey.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Pat wrote:...I'd have to have a three room house, so my wife could have her own room too...

The whole point of moving to an island is to get away from it all!!!
Mary Chellapa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2011
Posts: 93
Maneesh Godbole wrote:@Ankit,
Who do you think is responsible for sending these people to Parliament in the first place? You, me, us!!! That's why I asked how many of us vote.


You have a better choice???


Is doing nothing an option??
I am very happy that someone raising his voice. I really really hope it gets through.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Mary Chellapa wrote:
You have a better choice???

Agree. Not always. But in that case you can vote for the newest or the least likely candidate just to stack the deck against the usual suspects. Believe me the winning margin is one thing which is most observed by everyone

Mary Chellapa wrote:
Is doing nothing an option??

Sure you do. But then you forfeit the option of complaining too

Mary Chellapa wrote:
I am very happy that someone raising his voice. I really really hope it gets through.

I think that is exactly why things are in such a bad shape. Let someone else do it.
Mary Chellapa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2011
Posts: 93
Maneesh Godbole wrote:
I think that is exactly why things are in such a bad shape. Let someone else do it.


No. I never gave bribe. (Drop in the ocean ... yeah.. )
and i don't think i am a leader, but i support one who stood up.
I wish i could do something more.
I wish i could be Kiran Bedi.
I wish i could be Anna Hazare.

I mean see a person like lalu prasad ... his coming generations dont ever have to worry about money.
Dont we all want a better india.


Question : Do you vote?
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Mary Chellapa wrote:
Question : Do you vote?

I vote in all Municipal, State as well as Central elections.
Do you?
Rahul Sudip Bose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 637

Maneesh Godbole wrote:@Ankit,
Who do you think is responsible for sending these people to Parliament in the first place? You, me, us!!! That's why I asked how many of us vote.


Unfortunately, in some constituencies, voting means choosing the less rotten apple from a basket of rotten apples.
Rahul Sudip Bose
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 637

Paul Clapham wrote:
Pat Farrell wrote:Sadly, I think all countries have some corruption. In the US we just call it campaign contributions.


But at least where you and I live (the US and Canada), if you want to get a driver's licence, you just go down to the office and take the test. You don't have to pay the examiner a little bit extra to make sure you get a passing score. And if you want to get your new house connected to the city water system, you call up the city and they will (eventually) make that happen. You don't have to pay the guy at city hall a couple of hundred bucks to get it to happen this year rather than in 2014.

But if I understand correctly, this sort of thing happens all the time in India.


Yes and that is just petty corruption. You should see the large scale stuff ! Examples for those who may not be aware of the seriousness (read the controversies part about these folks) :
A. Raja
suresh kalmadi

This is only the recent stuff.
Ankit Garg
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 03, 2008
Posts: 9317
    
  17

Maneesh Godbole wrote:@Ankit,
Who do you think is responsible for sending these people to Parliament in the first place? You, me, us!!! That's why I asked how many of us vote.

Not me, I didn't put those corrupt leaders into the Parliament. Yes I do vote, but I generally vote for independent candidates, because most of the times they are the ones who actually want to do something for the country and not their personal benefit. Unfortunately they don't win most of the times. What I would like is an option of "None of the Above" in voting when you don't feel any of the candidates deserve to win.

I recently had to give bribe to a person to get a certificate that I live where I live. Before that the same thing for birth certificate, diver's license, police verification (for passport), land registry, house plan approval, water, electricity and telephone connection, the list goes on and on. And I've not faced these yet but in future if I have to take a loan or get a marriage certificate, I know I'll have to bribe a few people there as well. If you give them money your work will be done on time, if you don't, you'll have to wait for such a long time that you'll get frustrated and finally pay them anyway. You have to surrender at some point because you don't have time for all the hassle associated with doing things without bribes and soon you get used to it. But this has got to change at some point and now that whole India is standing up against corruption, I'm standing up too...
Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1056

Ankit Garg wrote:
Maneesh Godbole wrote:@Ankit,
. What I would like is an option of "None of the Above" in voting when you don't feel any of the candidates deserve to win.
.



Thats what came to my Mind this very Morning.....

Even Voting should not be given to all indiviuals who are 18 yrs or above... There must be some sort of examination which deals with how Democracy works and this exams should be conducted privately under no Govt supervision.. or else the concerned person should have certain degree of education for instance Bachelors or Masters degree
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Vishal Hegde wrote:.. or else the concerned person should have certain degree of education for instance Bachelors or Masters degree

I fail to see the connection between academic qualifications and ability to govern. Would Einstein have made a good prime minister? I doubt. In the past I have had the honor of working with a German gentleman. He had a PhD in nuclear physics. He got bored with it after a few years and shifted to programming. He was dazzlingly brilliant (if you read and followed his code which was very well documented). But he was notoriously difficult to comprehend during conference calls because he lacked the ability (or the will) to elucidate to us lesser mortals.

Also, academic qualifications do not necessarily indicate ability.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

Ankit Garg wrote:
Not me, I didn't put those corrupt leaders into the Parliament. Yes I do vote, but I generally vote for independent candidates, because most of the times they are the ones who actually want to do something for the country and not their personal benefit. Unfortunately they don't win most of the times. What I would like is an option of "None of the Above" in voting when you don't feel any of the candidates deserve to win.


You have raised some excellent points here.
Neither did I. But those people are still there. Our efforts are just not enough. I think the root is the apathy of the middle/working class towards voting. How many times one hears the refrain "What difference is my vote going to make?". Until the percentage voters go up, one cannot realistically expect to see any change. I like the idea of voting for independent candidates. I had suggested something similar in one of my replies above

Ankit Garg wrote:
I recently had to give bribe to a person to get a certificate that I live where I live. Before that the same thing for birth certificate, diver's license, police verification (for passport), land registry, house plan approval, water, electricity and telephone connection, the list goes on and on. And I've not faced these yet but in future if I have to take a loan or get a marriage certificate, I know I'll have to bribe a few people there as well. If you give them money your work will be done on time, if you don't, you'll have to wait for such a long time that you'll get frustrated and finally pay them anyway. You have to surrender at some point because you don't have time for all the hassle associated with doing things without bribes and soon you get used to it. But this has got to change at some point and now that whole India is standing up against corruption, I'm standing up too...


How are you standing up? By lighting candles? Posting on FB and other social media? Or have you decided to stop bribing? Implemented it?

Mind you, I might be coming off as being sarcastic or as opposing to toe the party line. That would be far from the truth. All I am trying to convey is my thinking that one should treat the root cause and not the symptom. The bill is not some magic wand that it will be passed and from the very next moment corruption will stop. Thats why I feel people like Anna will be more effective inside the Parliament than outside.


Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Do you think that common Indian can survive by not giving bribe for basic need of life, for example gas/electricity connection/water connection ?
Do you think that in country like India people can survive without giving bribe when whole system is corrupt? Where will you go to raise your voice ?
Do you think by not giving a bribe by common Indians the scams like 2G or CWG could have been avoided or controlled ?
Do you think that if you vote for very honest and clean people and these clean people will not become corrupt when they get power?
Now someone may say that even people in civil society can get corrupt. But they are saying that they have made some provisions for it too. And they are not claiming that they will stop 100% corruption. That is nearly impossible. But it can be reduced to greater extent. People are only concerned about 50 or 100 Rs. bribe they give to traffic police. People are not concerned about 1.75 lakh crore 2G scams.

First understand background of the people involved in civil society. Who these people are, what is their background. Who is Anna Hazare, who Arvind Kejriwal, Who is Shanti Bhushan, Prashant Bhushan, Who is Kiran Bedi. What they did in their past life. It is very easy to sit at your desk and comment here like, "what they are doing is right but the way they are doing is not right". Then propose your way of doing it. Remember you are fighting with people who are doing corruption from atleast two generations. They are very powerful. Keeping this in mind, can you suggest alternative way of doing it. Do you have better idea? Then "India against corruption" never stopped you from giving your opinion. I heard Mr. Arvind Kejriwal appealing to the people many times please give your suggestions. Have you given your suggestion? If no then what is use of criticizing everyone?
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

parag pathak wrote:It is very easy to sit at your desk and comment here like, "what they are doing is right but the way they are doing is not right". Then propose your way of doing it.... Keeping this in mind, can you suggest alternative way of doing it. Do you have better idea?... Have you given your suggestion? If no then what is use of criticizing everyone?

It's obvious you haven't even bothered to read my posts fully for the suggestions.
Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Those suggestions are not practical. You are not the first person to give those suggestions. Many had given them in history. They will not come true in country like India. So many people came to street to support these people are NOT STUPIDS.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10532
    
    9

STUPIDS *stupid
Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
And what is use of giving suggestions here?
Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Maneesh Godbole wrote:STUPIDS *stupid

fine thats ok. This is not discussion of English language spellings or correct typing. This is just indication that you do not have any other point in debate.
Arjun Srivastava
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 432

Maneesh Godbole wrote:I vote in all Municipal, State as well as Central elections.

That's great, man!


SCJP 6 | FB : Java Certifications-Help. | India Against Corruption
Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1056

Maneesh Godbole wrote:
Vishal Hegde wrote:.. or else the concerned person should have certain degree of education for instance Bachelors or Masters degree

I fail to see the connection between academic qualifications and ability to govern. Would Einstein have made a good prime minister? I doubt. In the past I have had the honor of working with a German gentleman. He had a PhD in nuclear physics. He got bored with it after a few years and shifted to programming. He was dazzlingly brilliant (if you read and followed his code which was very well documented). But he was notoriously difficult to comprehend during conference calls because he lacked the ability (or the will) to elucidate to us lesser mortals.

Also, academic qualifications do not necessarily indicate ability.


The reason I told that a person should have a certain degree in Masters or Bacherlors because at some point he is very much aware of the consequences that will take place beacuse of his actions....I am very good in my office work but whenever it comes into trainning new people in my team i get nervous with respect to their age, number of people etc..but that nervousness doesnot imply that i suck at my work..

Also whenver i Vote I have noticed that Maximum are Slum dwellers who are bribed with 500Rs.-1000rs or even more to vote for a particular Candidate..hence I am saying is that people should have some basic graduate or Masters qualification so that they can understand what might just happen because of their single vote.


if our democracy allows kasaab to be royally fed food, months to arrest Kalmadi and just minutes to arrest Anna.. i would rather prefer this media circus then democracy and so will all the Citizens of India
Ankit Garg
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 03, 2008
Posts: 9317
    
  17

Maneesh I understand your point and I respect your opinion. First of all I go to the protests against corruption in Jaipur and encourage others to do the same. You are right that the Jan Lokpal bill is not a guaranteed answer to corruption but at least its a positive step. I'm sick and tired of government statements like "we know there is corruption" or "we want to remove corruption". If you know its there and you want to eradicate it then for god's sake do something about it instead of just making statements. These statements are of zero importance if no action is taken. The government blatantly defends its ministers who are accused of corruption instead of having a fair investigation. The way Anna Hazare is taking the campaign might not be 100% right but its the best efforts by anyone against corruption in my lifetime. I agree that people need to be more aware about the power of each vote but again just like corruption in time the awareness would be there.

As far as not bribing is concerned, I don't like to bribe anyone. But sometimes you have to surrender to the system and corruption. I'm not a one man army that's why I've decided to stand up with Anna's army
Vishal Hegde
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 01, 2009
Posts: 1056

News Media are continuosly showing some strong punchlines from Lagey Raho Munnabhai...

where Gandhiji in 21st Century says

Break down all my statues built up in India, throw away all of my photoframess from the Govt Offices,Remove me from the Indian Currency Notes. If you want me to be alive for Generations keep my teaching and values in your heart, execute it be the change and see the change
Joe Harry
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 26, 2006
Posts: 9616
    
    2

Ankit Garg wrote:
Maneesh Godbole wrote:@Ankit,
Who do you think is responsible for sending these people to Parliament in the first place? You, me, us!!! That's why I asked how many of us vote.

Not me, I didn't put those corrupt leaders into the Parliament. Yes I do vote, but I generally vote for independent candidates, because most of the times they are the ones who actually want to do something for the country and not their personal benefit. Unfortunately they don't win most of the times. What I would like is an option of "None of the Above" in voting when you don't feel any of the candidates deserve to win.

I recently had to give bribe to a person to get a certificate that I live where I live. Before that the same thing for birth certificate, diver's license, police verification (for passport), land registry, house plan approval, water, electricity and telephone connection, the list goes on and on. And I've not faced these yet but in future if I have to take a loan or get a marriage certificate, I know I'll have to bribe a few people there as well. If you give them money your work will be done on time, if you don't, you'll have to wait for such a long time that you'll get frustrated and finally pay them anyway. You have to surrender at some point because you don't have time for all the hassle associated with doing things without bribes and soon you get used to it. But this has got to change at some point and now that whole India is standing up against corruption, I'm standing up too...


Reminds me of a famous dialogue in one of the south Indian movies. In some western countries you bribe to get that extra duty to be done (I'm not sure if this it true) but in India you bribe to even get the basic duty to be done (this is very true).


SCJP 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 - Hints for you, Certified Scrum Master
Did a rm -R / to find out that I lost my entire Linux installation!
John Jai
Bartender

Joined: May 31, 2011
Posts: 1776
I see the good thing in protesting is not for the bill but those who protest will eventually tend to develop an anti corruption mind that will stay forever. Especially when most of the youths are protesting, and when they come into public sectors or even win elections, it means that there is a high probability of reduction in corruption. So I feel Better India is not based on that Bill but the actual mind set injected into Future Indians.
Though I am not into any kind of protestations.

 
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