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Overseas work opportunity, luck or skill?

Kumar Sonu
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Joined: Apr 05, 2011
Posts: 36
I am a Software engineer in India and I am into my 5Th year of professional career. I have worked with Java and J2EE technologies.

From a long time I have been craving for an overseas opportunity (by asking the organization where I had worked to send me abroad) but somehow lady luck does not smile upon me. I find it difficult to understand that it is all luck which brings this opportunity to individuals or is it some other skill which I don't possess. I have always strived to increase my technical knowledge by doing java certifications and self learning. Some people might argue here that I should have increased my business knowledge but again my job role did not allow me to learn about business/domain knowledge. Whatever business knowledge I learned, I forgot it in a hurry as I never got a chance to do work on my learnings.

Guys any suggestions on what I can do in the future to open some closed doors.

As a note I work in Banking and Finance domain. And my prime job role is to develop banking web application projects (using Java).


SCJP,SCWCD, SCDJWS
Mary Chellapa
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 26, 2011
Posts: 93
Being in Indian Company more than luck you need great interpersonal skills and knowing how to get to those people who send you onsite... besides technical knowledge.
that being said... off-late onsite opportunities have dwindled, its getting harder to get Visa etc... so that may have played a role too.

since you have a fair amount of technical knowledge (5yr), you can try via those IT staffing companies... but choose the company wisely... don't end up paying them (as lot of them ask to).

Good Luck.

PS: India is just as fabulous as anywhere ... may be better.


Mary
Paul Anilprem
Enthuware Software Support
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 3253
    
    2
Kumar Sonu wrote:I am a Software engineer in India and I am into my 5Th year of professional career. I have worked with Java and J2EE technologies.

From a long time I have been craving for an overseas opportunity (by asking the organization where I had worked to send me abroad) but somehow lady luck does not smile upon me. I find it difficult to understand that it is all luck which brings this opportunity to individuals or is it some other skill which I don't possess. I have always strived to increase my technical knowledge by doing java certifications and self learning. Some people might argue here that I should have increased my business knowledge but again my job role did not allow me to learn about business/domain knowledge. Whatever business knowledge I learned, I forgot it in a hurry as I never got a chance to do work on my learnings.

Guys any suggestions on what I can do in the future to open some closed doors.

As a note I work in Banking and Finance domain. And my prime job role is to develop banking web application projects (using Java).



1. Your career is your responsibility, not your company's. So if your career goals are not being met, switch the company. In the oursourcing model, there is no benefit for the company to send a resource onsite unless it is absolutely necessary to do so. The company will not send you onsite just because you've been asking for a long time. In fact, if I were your manager, I would probably not send you onsite because by now I would have known that you are only going to complain/request and not do anything else Remember, it is more beneficial for the company to have a skilled resource working offsite rather than onsite.
2. Your learning is not necessarily dependent on what you do at your job. My suggestion would be to get rid of this excuse from your mind. Also, it is very important to have good verbal communication skill. I do not know how well you score on that front but that is one area where you can probably improve. This will help you land a better project within or outside the company.
3. If you are working with an outsourcing company like TCS, Infosys, Wipro, an opportunity to go onsite is very much dependent on the project you work on. Some are indeed lucky to get such a project right in their first job after college, but for most, it takes efforts and calculated moves within or outside the company.
4. Banking and Finance is a big domain. Do you work in retail consumer banking or investment banking?

HTH,
Paul.


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Parag Pathak
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Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Paul Anilprem wrote: Remember, it is more beneficial for the company to have a skilled resource working offsite rather than onsite.

This is true only for non IT MNCs not for Inidian IT companies. http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-03-08/news-by-industry/28668595_1_h-1b-visas-visa-fee-visa-norms

If you manage your skilled resources this way I wonder how many skilled resources you will be able to retain. If you are managing B grade projects where you do not need highly skilled resources then you can let them go. But you are managing A grade project where you need skilled people then you will have to make tough choice. As far as the service companies you mentioned, they send lot of people onsite. Even small service companies send people onsite. Going onsite is motivation for people to work in Indian IT. If you take that out, it will be tough to retain. And sending onsite does not only benefit employee, it also help companies this is why they send onsite. If some company has this culture, I would say do not work there.
Paul Anilprem
Enthuware Software Support
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Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 3253
    
    2
Parag Pathak wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote: Remember, it is more beneficial for the company to have a skilled resource working offsite rather than onsite.

This is true only for non IT MNCs not for Inidian IT companies. http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-03-08/news-by-industry/28668595_1_h-1b-visas-visa-fee-visa-norms


If you manage your skilled resources this way I wonder how many skilled resources you will be able to retain. If you are managing B grade projects where you do not need highly skilled resources then you can let them go. But you are managing A grade project where you need skilled people then you will have to make tough choice. As far as the service companies you mentioned, they send lot of people onsite. Even small service companies send people onsite. Going onsite is motivation for people to work in Indian IT. If you take that out, it will be tough to retain. And sending onsite does not only benefit employee, it also help companies this is why they send onsite. If some company has this culture, I would say do not work there.


1. The article you have referred does not say anything about the point that I made. Yes, obviously, growth is hampered because of visa restrictions. That doesn't mean they are sending higher percentage of employees on site.

2. I have been in this business for 10+ yrs and I have a fairly decent understanding of how this model works Doing as much work off site as possible is the goal. On site stint is a carrot. Managing an employee using this carrot is the game! Yes, there are companies who engage in on-shore out-sourcing as well. You would be lucky to get into such a project while sitting off shore.

Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Paul Anilprem wrote:

1. The article you have referred does not say anything about the point that I made. Yes, obviously, growth is hampered because of visa restrictions. That doesn't mean they are sending higher percentage of employees on site.


The article which posted says it very clear what I wanted say. Never mind If you search on google you will get more clear answer. I suspect you know it but you still want to say that these companies do not send people onsite. Well they do. Even small service companies send people onsite. Indian service companies are known for onsite opportunities. Even a tester who do manual testing and he/she can be easily replaced because manual testing is not rare skill also get onsite opportunities in service companies. .

In IMO when a skilled person leaves the company, finding a replacement for similar skill, training and bringing him on same level is more costly than sending that person onsite. And even if you do that, same thing can happen with new person as well. I am talking about A grade projects. If some company has a policy of not sending people onsite in order to save money, I wonder how they will compete with others who send onsite as far as war of talent is concerned. Or they do not need talent, they are okay with commodity developers. I don't understand.


Paul Anilprem wrote:

2. I have been in this business for 10+ yrs and I have a fairly decent understanding of how this model works Doing as much work off site as possible is the goal. On site stint is a carrot. Managing an employee using this carrot is the game! Yes, there are companies who engage in on-shore out-sourcing as well. You would be lucky to get into such a project while sitting off shore.



See Paul, in forums many people come and say I have 10+ years of experience, I have 20+ plus years of experience and this the reason what someone saying is correct. It is kind of a rule that if you have 10+ or 20+ plus years of experience everything you talk is true. No. And well I never say how many years of experience I have, probably I may have more than you, do you know anything about me? I hope no. So let's keep that aside. I never give any importance to how many years anyone spent working in office. I also never agree that knowledge and skills are directly proportional to experience someone have. Anyway offshore development is known for saving cost, but not this way.

It's not luck. It is skill. You do not go for picnic onisite. You go for some purpose. You need that skill to achieve it. It is skill not luck.

I disagree with what you said, that is what I want to say.

p.s. company specific discussion should be avoided.
Paul Anilprem
Enthuware Software Support
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 3253
    
    2
Parag Pathak wrote:
Paul Anilprem wrote:

1. The article you have referred does not say anything about the point that I made. Yes, obviously, growth is hampered because of visa restrictions. That doesn't mean they are sending higher percentage of employees on site.


The article which posted says it very clear what I wanted say. Never mind If you search on google you will get more clear answer. I suspect you know it but you still want to say that these companies do not send people onsite. Well they do. Even small service companies send people onsite. Indian service companies are known for onsite opportunities. Even a tester who do manual testing and he/she can be easily replaced because manual testing is not rare skill also get onsite opportunities in service companies. .



You might want to read Fallacy #8 described at http://www.javaranch.com/fallacy.jsp

Nowhere did I say that companies don't send people onsite. Here is what I said, "In the oursourcing model, there is no benefit for the company to send a resource onsite unless it is absolutely necessary to do so." and "Remember, it is more beneficial for the company to have a skilled resource working offsite rather than onsite."

A resource makes money for the company while he/she is onsite as well as while he is offsite. However, a resource is more profitable to the company when he is working on a project off site. In my experience, this is true and for this reason, a company would not send a resource, who is already working on a project off site, on site (unless it is necessary for the project or if the manager thinks that he will lose a critical resource otherwise). If it were for the company, it would send everybody onsite and everybody would be happy. But obviously that is not the case. Onsite gigs are limited and are routinely used a carrots. Basically, it is a management issue. Nothing much to do with coding/technical skill.

Parag Pathak wrote:
In IMO when a skilled person leaves the company, finding a replacement for similar skill, training and bringing him on same level is more costly than sending that person onsite. And even if you do that, same thing can happen with new person as well. I am talking about A grade projects. If some company has a policy of not sending people onsite in order to save money, I wonder how they will compete with others who send onsite as far as war of talent is concerned. Or they do not need talent, they are okay with commodity developers. I don't understand.


What you are saying is correct but is tangential to the problem that OP is facing and to my response to his problem. Again, your disagreement could probably be attributed to Fallacy #8.

OP has clearly stated that he is skilled and is working off shore on banking web application projects. He has also very clearly written that he has asked his organization to put him on a project with overseas opportunity, yet that has not happened. The reason why that has probably not happened is what I explained in my response. Your statements, while correct, are, imho, irrelevant.
Paul Anilprem
Enthuware Software Support
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 3253
    
    2
Parag Pathak wrote:
Even a tester who do manual testing and he/she can be easily replaced because manual testing is not rare skill also get onsite opportunities in service companies.
...
It's not luck. It is skill. You do not go for picnic onisite. You go for some purpose. You need that skill to achieve it. It is skill not luck.


Do you not see the contradiction in your statements?
Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Paul Anilprem wrote:
You might want to read Fallacy #8 described at http://www.javaranch.com/fallacy.jsp



Do not try to take support of anything outside of debate.

And there is no contradiction. Manual tester do not go onsite because of luck. Take this out of your mind that people go onsite because of luck. They are sent because they are required to be sent (for any reason). They are sent may be for work which can not be done offsite. They are sent because they have been loyal to company and as a recognition of their contribution. They are sent because company do not want them to leave. Reason may be anything but it is not luck. When you start debating with finding contradiction etc, it is sign that probably you are not finding valid point.

Everyone is not sent onsite at the same time. Do you thin anyone will expect send everyone onsite at the same time? I think no. Then what is difference between onsite and offsite development. They are sent in phases. Have you heard of job rotation? I am sure in your 10+ years of experience you might have come across it somewhere.

Yes it is more profitable for company that all the people work offsite. It is also more profitable for company that people start working for free. Yes that is also profitable. But one small question, is it practical? So it is not practical to expect everything will work the way company want it. People will leave you (in little better economy )

If I start replying on everything, it will be waste of time.

In short do you agree people are sent onsite in phases? I hope your answer is yes. If that is yes then I think you should also agree on OP has valid expectation after working for 5 years, he expect onsite opportunity. What is wrong in that?
Paul Anilprem
Enthuware Software Support
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 23, 2000
Posts: 3253
    
    2
Parag Pathak wrote:

Take this out of your mind that people go onsite because of luck. They are sent because they are required to be sent (for any reason). They are sent may be for work which can not be done offsite. They are sent because they have been loyal to company and as a recognition of their contribution. They are sent because company do not want them to leave. Reason may be anything but it is not luck. When you start debating with finding contradiction etc, it is sign that probably you are not finding valid point.

Everyone is not sent onsite at the same time. Do you thin anyone will expect send everyone onsite at the same time? I think no. Then what is difference between onsite and offsite development. They are sent in phases. Have you heard of job rotation? I am sure in your 10+ years of experience you might have come across it somewhere.

Yes it is more profitable for company that all the people work offsite. It is also more profitable for company that people start working for free. Yes that is also profitable. But one small question, is it practical? So it is not practical to expect everything will work the way company want it. People will leave you (in little better economy )

If I start replying on everything, it will be waste of time.

In short do you agree people are sent onsite in phases? I hope your answer is yes. If that is yes then I think you should also agree on OP has valid expectation after working for 5 years, he expect onsite opportunity. What is wrong in that?


I wish I could respond by saying it better than Fallacy #8

But you are right. Thanks for sharing you thoughts.
Prasad Krishnegowda
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Posts: 507

Mary Chellapa wrote:
PS: India is just as fabulous as anywhere ... may be better.

Agree..

With Due respect and no intention to hurt anyone, why people expect and get desperate to go to onsite? I don't see any reason, why a person should complain that I have x years of experience and not gone to onsite even once, it just means that, the type of work that person was doing, could be done at offshore only.

Some people consider a person successful in IT industry, just by seeing how many times, (s)he have gone onsite and the salary they are getting. just getting more salary makes the person successful?

On the topic. I would say, its a mixture of the skill and luck, that gets a person an onsite opportunity. Also, Interpersonal skills play a very important role, because in onsite, most of them would be expected to handle clients.


Regards, Prasad
SCJP 5 (93%)
Parag Pathak
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 57
Prasad Krishnegowda wrote:
Some people consider a person successful in IT industry, just by seeing how many times, (s)he have gone onsite and the salary they are getting. just getting more salary makes the person successful?

What is your definition of success? Is more work, more knowledge, less pay, no oniste travel is your definition of the success, then I am not that. Again my comments are my personal opinion and not to criticize any company's policy.

All the best !
Kumar Sonu
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Joined: Apr 05, 2011
Posts: 36
Lets not go into a war of the words. Thank you everyone for the useful inputs. Fact of the matter is that I am still here.


Satyaprakash Joshii
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Joined: Jun 18, 2012
Posts: 131
Kumar if you are so obsessed with going abroad why dont you try for a company which directly sends abroad.In naukri monster there are companies which direclty send abroad why dont you try out in that.
Jayesh A Lalwani
Bartender

Joined: Jan 17, 2008
Posts: 2272
    
  28

Prasad Krishnegowda wrote:

With Due respect and no intention to hurt anyone, why people expect and get desperate to go to onsite?


Well, for one, it looks good on the resume Not sure if this is true anymore, but 15 years ago, when I was looking to come to US, a lot of bodyshoppers preferred someone who had overseas experience, because it's much easier to orient someone in the US who has worked overseas before. If you are taking someone who has never left India, you don't know if they will be adjust to the food, living on their own, driving, blah blah. You get someone who says they have live 3-6 months in a foreign country, and you have some guarantee that they will be able to manage.

Havind said that, I agree with Mary's comment above. I don't see why it is so much more attractive to come onsite anymore. Back when I was looking to come here, we came to US because there were lot more jobs here. That's not true anymore. We are always looking for senior people in our offshore office, and it is so hard. Anyone who is senior is either in the US, or is looking to come to US. The minute we say "We are looking for a offshore lead/architect", people run away.
Satyaprakash Joshii
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 18, 2012
Posts: 131
There has been lot of good advice on this thread...with very experienced developers sharing good advice and views. That is quite useful for any developer.

Now if we forget for a second that wehther someone should be so much obsessed for onsite or not, suppose someone is there who is obsessed for working abroad: Now from everyone's experience What are the ways by which he can go abroad or for onsite.>? Whether one should go onsite or not is a different question which has been answered well.Now from all the experience how can a person who has 3-4 years experience in java go abroad or as onsite..?
chhodi pua
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 11, 2014
Posts: 1
well its easy to say "The minute we say "We are looking for a offshore lead/architect", people run away." when a salary / savings for a develper role in usa is 4 times than these offshore architects are offered, obviuosly people will look for onsite. Gaps are narrowing down, but still a 2 year stint at onsite makes life easier at offshore, especially if you have homeloans and personal loans and ever increasing cost of leaving in big indian cities

whats minimum salary in usa 60000 $ pa [36,000,00 inr pa] ? tell me a company which pays so called "offshore lead / architect" that kinda salary i am sure no of such kind jobs in india will be 5% than in usa

probably usa startups should start hiring fulltime freelancers to work from india, then it would give better finacial options than outsourcing companies to developers and outsourcing benefits to usa companies
chris webster
Bartender

Joined: Mar 01, 2009
Posts: 1610
    
  13

Satyaprakash Joshii wrote:Now from all the experience how can a person who has 3-4 years experience in java go abroad or as onsite..?

Sorry, but asking "why?" is part of the answer to "how?". Why should an employer in India send you abroad, or why should a foreign employer hire you, especially when in some countries many of the local IT professionals are out of work, partly thanks to massive offshoring of IT work to countries like India? If you want to get a job abroad, surely you need to consider the answers to questions like these, in order to present your own case most persuasively to people who may be asking the same questions?

  • For example, why are you so desperate to work abroad (is India so horrible)?
  • What countries are you interested in working in, and why?
  • Why should an Indian employer send you to work abroad, apart from just because you want them to?
  • Have you tried to get work in your target country via a multi-national with offices in India, e.g. by demonstrating your usefulness to your employer and persuading them to send you onsite?
  • What can you offer a foreign employer to persuade them to sponsor you for a work permit, instead of just hiring a local Java developer?

  • From what I've seen here in the UK, there are still quite a lot of onshored staff around, usually from India, but they seem increasingly to be a smaller number of more skilled/experienced people than was the case a few years ago. Onshoring of Indian IT staff in large numbers was very common when UK-based companies were in the process of transferring control of the IT projects or systems to offshore service providers. But many of those companies - especially in the banking sector - completed this process of shifting their IT work (= IT jobs) offshore years ago, so they simply don't feel they need so many IT staff in the UK. Not sure how it is in other countries, but it seems the first big offshoring/onshoring bonanza is over, certainly in the banking sector because the work is already being done in India instead.


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