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smoking

Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

i smoke and frankly i am tired of being persecuted by non-smokers. they just passed another law(they never get rid of any) so now i can get a ticket smoking outdoors at a bus stop. and this @#$$#@@ manager at mcDonalds is constantly on me. you cant sit down. you cant stand there. even though i am obeying the other new law about being 15 feet from the door. i remember when i could smoke in restaurants. and they were actual restaurant back then instead of fast food joints. there is even one nearby city that tried to ban smoking entirely inside the city limits!


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fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11356
    
  16

So what should be the answer? I agree you have the right to choose to smoke, but the problem is that I should also have the right not to breathe your smoke. What do you propose as a fair solution?

It goes back to the "your right to swing your arm stops at my face". How do we let you smoke in such a way that it doesn't come into my lungs?


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

i agree. but if i am standing alone outside why should i get a ticket, or get chastised by an over zealous manager. it's bad enough i am standing in the cold and sometimes rain.
i still liked when they had indoor smoking in designated areas, but that is no more.
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3479

What about Electronic cigarettes?
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3479

Smoking rules in the US are much more stricter than the ones in the EU?
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

i haven't tried them but i doubt they are the same. i have tried nicotine pills(you let them dissolve in your mouth) before and they do satisfy the craving but not the habit really.
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

they seem to get stricter in the US all the time. no smoking in pubs anymore. or anywhere indoors. only exception here in Austin is Cigar shops but they are trying to ban it there as well.
Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3479

I'm a smoker myself but it is not a habit, it is perfectly ok to spend many days without smoking. And I'm planning to drop it entirely.
Have you considered quit smoking?
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

after over 40 years no. but i have considered cutting down. it is a very strong addiction.
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18570
    
    8

It's getting more expensive too, isn't it?
Sachin Patil
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2002
Posts: 120

This topic reminded and made me smoke.


A tool that's lost its purpose makes a great toy.
Darryl Burke
Bartender

Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 4575
    
    5

Randall Twede wrote:i remember when i could smoke in restaurants.


I read this somewhere on the net:
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.


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There are no new questions, but there may be new answers.
Darryl Burke
Bartender

Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 4575
    
    5

Sachin Patil wrote:This topic reminded and made me smoke.

I was already smoking when I spotted the topic
John Jai
Bartender

Joined: May 31, 2011
Posts: 1776
Darryl Burke wrote:
Sachin Patil wrote:This topic reminded and made me smoke.

I was already smoking when I spotted the topic

And I am going to have one after reading this post

And @Randall - Smoking in public places is banned in India too... at least now they force it in restaurants & offices (My office removed the smoking zone).

The act is not to force you reduce smoking but to save the non-smokers so you have no choice other than to oblige...
Stephan van Hulst
Bartender

Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 3647
    
  16

And what about smoking at home? How many parents force their kids to grow up with their smoke?
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Hussein Baghdadi wrote:I'm a smoker myself but it is not a habit, it is perfectly ok to spend many days without smoking. And I'm planning to drop it entirely.
Have you considered quit smoking?
Hussain, if you intend ever to quit, I suggest you do so immediately. It always starts this way, but before long it becomes an addition. And you won't know that it is becoming an addiction until it has already happened.

I understand the "I shouldn't have to breathe in your smoke argument." But if that were all there were to it, it would not be difficult to provide reasonable options for smokers to smoke non-offensively (just as we are capable of providing wheelchair ramps and such for handicap access). But because of the opinion that people really _shouldn't_ smoke, those who write these restrictions are quite pleased to inconvenience smokers unnecessarily and to humiliate them.
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

Frank echo's my point. but it goes beyond just that. what happened to the owners rights? if i own a tavern(pub) why can't i allow smoking(it is my building). most of my customers smoke. if someone doesn't like it they can go to another. why am i forced by law to ban it?
Darryl Burke
Bartender

Joined: May 03, 2008
Posts: 4575
    
    5

Frank Silbermann wrote:Hussain, if you intend ever to quit, I suggest you do so immediately.

++

And I fully agree with everything else Frank said. And what Randall said about a pub.
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18570
    
    8

Randall Twede wrote:what happened to the owners rights? if i own a tavern(pub) why can't i allow smoking(it is my building). most of my customers smoke. if someone doesn't like it they can go to another. why am i forced by law to ban it?


When smoking was banned in bars where I live, the reason was nothing to do with the owner, nor with the customers. The reason was that it was harming the health of the employees.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Paul Clapham wrote:
Randall Twede wrote:what happened to the owners rights? if i own a tavern(pub) why can't i allow smoking(it is my building). most of my customers smoke. if someone doesn't like it they can go to another. why am i forced by law to ban it?


When smoking was banned in bars where I live, the reason was nothing to do with the owner, nor with the customers. The reason was that it was harming the health of the employees.
And it does indeed harm an employee's health to have to spend hours a day in a smoky environment.

I think a reasonable position would be to open a smokers' restaurant that would require all employees to wear gas masks (presumably with Darth Vader microphones so they could speak to the customers), and at the end of a shift to detox in a shower and put on clean clothes before leaving the premises.
Ogeh Ikem
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 180
Frank Silbermann wrote:I think a reasonable position would be to open a smokers' restaurant that would require all employees to wear gas masks (presumably with Darth Vader microphones so they could speak to the customers), and at the end of a shift to detox in a shower and put on clean clothes before leaving the premises.

Is that reasonable?

Randall Twede wrote:what happened to the owners rights? if i own a tavern(pub) why can't i allow smoking(it is my building). most of my customers smoke. if someone doesn't like it they can go to another. why am i forced by law to ban it?

Just as the law protects the innocent from criminals, it also protects non-smokers from smokers. One of the problems with smoking is that it contains a cocktail of toxic chemicals; many of which find their way into the bloodstream and contribute to plaque buildup in the arteries. People should not be allowed to spread this poison.


Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Well, it would solve the problem of danger to employees' health. It would be more reasonable to allow such restaurants than to allow no smoke-permitted restaurants whatsoever.
Maneesh Godbole
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10426
    
    8

Statutory Warning: The joy you derive from smoking, will be deducted from your share of joy in heaven.

I love smoking. As I grow older, I realize all things should be in moderation. So I make a conscious effort to smoke a bit less now.
I am the type who loves to enjoy life, not live in fear always. And for all those who are going to jump on me for saying this, lets talk about other forms of air pollution first, like vehicle exhaust fumes. And world peace. So there.

When they banned smoking from bars which I used to haunt, I just took my business to bars which had restricted smoking zones.
These restrictions piss me off. If I had my way, I would not allow non smokers to sit in the smoking zone.


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Ogeh Ikem
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 180
Maneesh Godbole wrote:When they banned smoking from bars which I used to haunt, I just took my business to bars which had restricted smoking zones.
These restrictions piss me off. If I had my way, I would not allow non smokers to sit in the smoking zone.


Is it practical to have a smoking zone in a bar? As Darryl pointed out earlier...

Darryl Burke wrote:I read this somewhere on the net:
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Except that pee is usually sterile and harmless :-)
Ogeh Ikem
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2002
Posts: 180
Because it’s a waste product, I won't advise swimming in it.
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 21, 2000
Posts: 4347
    
    2

Is that reasonable?

no, but it is pretty darn funny
lets talk about other forms of air pollution first, like vehicle exhaust fumes

yes lets. the same people who complain about cigarette smoke almost all drive cars. i have to breath that stuff every day and it is much worse.
Stephan van Hulst
Bartender

Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 3647
    
  16

The difference being that transport is a necessity and smoking is a luxury. And as Randall has already pointed out, besides it being addicting, it's a habit more than anything else.

What's wrong with owning a place and letting your patrons smoke? You are forcing both your employees and non-smoking customers to deal with the harmful effects. Yes, you are forcing, because you can not simply say that they can take their labor/business elsewhere. This is not feasible, and not reasonable.

I don't mind that people smoke outside somewhere, and I also don't think smokers should be vilified. But smoking definitely taxes society and health care. Smoking is a choice (I don't need to hear arguments about addiction, because that only speaks against the case of allowing people to smoke in the first place), and therefore smokers should be prepared to deal with whatever restrictions society places on them in order to protect others.
Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1387
Stephan van Hulst wrote:The difference being that transport is a necessity and smoking is a luxury. And as Randall has already pointed out, besides it being addicting, it's a habit more than anything else.

What's wrong with owning a place and letting your patrons smoke? You are forcing both your employees and non-smoking customers to deal with the harmful effects. Yes, you are forcing, because you can not simply say that they can take their labor/business elsewhere. This is not feasible, and not reasonable.

I don't mind that people smoke outside somewhere, and I also don't think smokers should be vilified. But smoking definitely taxes society and health care. Smoking is a choice (I don't need to hear arguments about addiction, because that only speaks against the case of allowing people to smoke in the first place), and therefore smokers should be prepared to deal with whatever restrictions society places on them in order to protect others.
Despite my general sympathy for Randall's view, I would have to day that the air pollution of automobiles (given no-lead gas/petrol and catalytic converters) is much less harmful than tobacco smoke (assuming typical concentrations of each).

As for the restaurant issue, I believe that nonsmoking patrons _can_ choose to go elsewhere if they don't want the smoke. They have no more right to demand that an owner provide a smoke-free environment than for someone with a peanut allergy to demand that a restaurant provide peanut-free meals and air free of peanut scent. It's a different story with respect to the employees, in the US at least, because we have OSHA -- the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. It has been established that employers are not free to provide unnecessarily dangerous employment using the argument that employees are free to seek employment elsewhere.

Hence my solution to require employees of a smoker's restaurant to wear gas masks, or even scuba tanks.

No, smoking has been shown NOT to burden society with health-care costs. Not only to smokers save the state pension costs, but dying smokers tend to have consumed less health-care money over a lifetime than dying non-smokers. (For instance, deaths at a younger age, smokers are much less likely to be institutionalized for Alzheimer's disease.)

No, a smoker should not have to deal with any restrictions society places on them in the interest of protecting others -- but rather only the necessary restrictions.
Sachin Patil
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 08, 2002
Posts: 120

Don't you think this is becoming way too meaningful? Going for another smoke.
 
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