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Providing Complete Answers in Code

Alexandre Mendes
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 16, 2011
Posts: 17
I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .
Jeff Verdegan
Bartender

Joined: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6109
    
    6

Alexandre Mendes wrote:I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .


Right. Discuss it. In a way that leads the OP to understanding, learning, and solving his own problem. That's very different from just handing him the answer.

Maybe you didn't know, and that's fine, but now you do, so please respect that in the future. Thanks!
Alexandre Mendes
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 16, 2011
Posts: 17
Campbell Ritchie wrote:
Alexandre Mendes wrote:look at the code. It can Help.
Not any more. In view of what Jeff Verdegan has just told you, I have gone back and edited your post. Please remember people learn less by being given a complete answer like that. Your code would not have helped at all, I am afraid.
Jeff Verdegan wrote:
Please don't do that. This site is NotACodeMill.(⇐click) Just handing somebody the solution doesn't help him learn. And, as it clearly states on the topics page, "We're all here to learn, so when responding to others, please focus on helping them discover their own solutions, instead of simply providing answers." . . .
Thank you for noticing.


I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .
Alexandre Mendes
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 16, 2011
Posts: 17
Jeff Verdegan wrote:
Alexandre Mendes wrote:I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .


Right. Discuss it. In a way that leads the OP to understanding, learning, and solving his own problem. That's very different from just handing him the answer.

Maybe you didn't know, and that's fine, but now you do, so please respect that in the future. Thanks!


I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .
Winston Gutkowski
Bartender

Joined: Mar 17, 2011
Posts: 8241
    
  23

Alexandre Mendes wrote:I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .

Is your 'Enter' key stuck?

Winston


Isn't it funny how there's always time and money enough to do it WRONG?
Articles by Winston can be found here
Jeff Verdegan
Bartender

Joined: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6109
    
    6

Alexandre Mendes wrote:
Jeff Verdegan wrote:
Alexandre Mendes wrote:I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .


Right. Discuss it. In a way that leads the OP to understanding, learning, and solving his own problem. That's very different from just handing him the answer.

Maybe you didn't know, and that's fine, but now you do, so please respect that in the future. Thanks!


I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .


You already said that, and I already responded to it. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about forum etiquette. If you have more to say to me, please PM me.

EDIT: Okay, now that Campbell has been kind enough to split this off into its own thread, it is in fact about forum etiquette, so no need for a PM. (But still feel free to if you wish.)
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 39851
    
  28
This thread has been split off from this one.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 39851
    
  28
Jeff Verdegan is correct. It does not help anybody to be given a complete answer like that. What’s more, we have policies and a request on the beginning Java forum. Many people miss that request, or misunderstand it, and we mods have the task of keeping the forum in a manner to maximise the learning potential for the users. If Alex Mokosh had Googled and found a program and copied it, he would have learned where to find it. If he had found pseudo-code or the logic of the algorithm, he would have learned how to convert that to code. By copying somebody’s work, on the other hand, he would learn nothing. Providing such an answer usually does more harm than good.

If the task of maximising learning entails deleting part of a post, we do that. Remember we are here to help Alex Mokosh in that thread.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11479
    
  16

another point I'd like to make...

A lot of people disagree with the philosophy of "Don't post a complete solution". I think there is some validity to the argument about how posting a complete solution can indeed help some people understand what is going on.

However, this site is owned by Paul, and he makes the rules here. Our job as moderators is to enforce them. If you disagree with the policy, you can politely discuss it and try to change his mind, or you can start your own site and do whatever you want.

In other words, it's our site, these are our rules. If you want to continue making posts here, you need to follow them.


There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors
Henry Wong
author
Sheriff

Joined: Sep 28, 2004
Posts: 18991
    
  40

Winston Gutkowski wrote:
Alexandre Mendes wrote:I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .

Is your 'Enter' key stuck?


IMO, the OP is probably trying to encourage discussion -- hoping people with the opposite view would jump in. Unfortunately (for the topic), everyone (so far) has the view that providing the answer instead of encouraging the user to figure out the answer, is not correct.

Without the opposite view, there is no debate. Without debate, this topic is going to end with agreement.


BTW, add me to the list in the "better to have people figure out the answer" camp.

Henry


Books: Java Threads, 3rd Edition, Jini in a Nutshell, and Java Gems (contributor)
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11479
    
  16

Henry Wong wrote:add me to the list in the "better to have people figure out the answer" camp.

In case I didn't make it clear, for the most part, I agree. I believe there are times when a full answer is the best solution, but they are few and far between.
Jeff Verdegan
Bartender

Joined: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6109
    
    6

fred rosenberger wrote:
Henry Wong wrote:add me to the list in the "better to have people figure out the answer" camp.

In case I didn't make it clear, for the most part, I agree. I believe there are times when a full answer is the best solution, but they are few and far between.


Yeah, that just came up in another thread. As I pointed out there, when the OP has shown effort and is close, then it can be okay to provide the "full solution" that covers the reamining small delta between what he did so far and where he needs to be. And sometimes it's just clearer and more effective to explain something with code than with text (though, if practical, I'd still prefer an example that's similar but that the OP can't just mindlessly copy/paste).
Jeff Verdegan
Bartender

Joined: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6109
    
    6

Henry Wong wrote:
Winston Gutkowski wrote:
Alexandre Mendes wrote:I'm new here. Really. We are here to discuss the matter .

Is your 'Enter' key stuck?


IMO, the OP is probably trying to encourage discussion -- hoping people with the opposite view would jump in.


If that's the case, it would be nice if he'd add something to the discussion other than just repeating the same trite and vague comment 3 times.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 39851
    
  28
And there are some code idioms, like this one... which you simply have to show to people, because nobody would guess it otherwise.
Jeff Verdegan
Bartender

Joined: Jan 03, 2004
Posts: 6109
    
    6

Campbell Ritchie wrote:And there are some code idioms, like this one... which you simply have to show to people, because nobody would guess it otherwise.


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