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Kaustubh G Sharma
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Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 1270

Watching a documentary on healthcare system by Michael Moore. It was very surprising to see inferior health system in US comparing to other developed countries. Situation in developing countries were more poor. Really impress by the healthcare system of france, UK , canada, cuba, switzerland. Sad to see how could people become so blind for making money, they'd forgotten humanity totally. After watching it felt myself very small in this system, where only rich is ruling and they can do anything to add more money in their accounts. Doesn't matter whether you're leaving in a democratic or communist or the greatest nation in this world, your voice is too low to hear and you have to believe more in fate.


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Thakur Sachin Singh
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Joined: Jun 15, 2010
Posts: 232

rightly said.


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fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11161
    
  16

Anything by Michael Moore has to be taken with a rather large grain of salt. I have not seen Sicko, so I can't comment on it directly, but many of his 'documentaries' have a clear bias.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with much of what he has to say, most of the time. But I would never take anything he presents as pure, unbiased "facts" of how things are/were.


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Maneesh Godbole
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Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 10170
    
    8

I have always wondered, how he gets away with all the stuff he does without getting sued


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Matthew Brown
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Joined: Apr 06, 2010
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    8

My uninformed guess would be that enough of it is true that anyone suing him would get some seriously bad publicity out of it.
Campbell Ritchie
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 38031
    
  22
Having seen the best of the American health care system in operation, albeit a good eleven years ago, I am suitably impressed. Maybe the biggest problem is uncontrollable expense. Maybe those who cannot run to insurance cannot get decent care. but I missed both those problems where I was.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
Bartender

Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 11161
    
  16

Maneesh Godbole wrote:I have always wondered, how he gets away with all the stuff he does without getting sued
It has been a while since I have seen any MM film, but remember two things:

1) truth is a defense. If he said "G.W. Bush went on vacation a week after 9/11", and he did, then he cannot be sued.
2) opinion is also protected speech. If he says "I think John Doe is a lazy stupid jerk", that is his opinion, and is protected. If he says "John Doe is a child molester" and has no evidence to support such a fact, then he can be sued.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
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  16

Health care is a very tricky subject...there is the actual quality of care you get, and there is how/who pays for it. They are very closely intertwined, but I believe they are/should be separate issues.

We excel at the care we CAN give. We suck at paying for it. However, it gets even more complicated.

I have seen charts that compare how much is spent per capita on healthcare in different countries. One of the big issues here in the U.S. is getting people to their doctors. Public transportation often stinks here, so people can't get to their primary care physician (PCP). Therefore, they don't get any preventative care. therefore, their condition worsens until they go to the emergency room, which costs a mint, raising the cost of the care.

Other countries spend more on public transportation, so people can get to their PCP more easily, so they get the preventative care.

According to the one chart I saw, if you factor in the social/public services that various countries provide, spending is about the same across the board. The U.S. just seems to be spending more on the back-end, while other countries spend it on the front-end.

I'll see if I can find the graph again, although I doubt it.
Jayesh A Lalwani
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Joined: Jan 17, 2008
Posts: 2273
    
  28

The US has the best healthcare system in the world... if you can afford it. Generally, the good plans are available to people whose employers can afford to pay the big bucks. So computer programmers, lawyers, politicians all get the good plans. The lower you are on the pay scale, the worse it gets for you. IMO, this creates a class system

Fred, are you thinking of this chart
Paul Clapham
Bartender

Joined: Oct 14, 2005
Posts: 18541
    
    8

I have read (somewhere) that somebody compared the office overhead for doctors in the US and in Canada, and found that the former were four times as high as the latter. Why? US doctors (and their staff) have to deal with dozens of insurance companies to get paid, whereas Canadian doctors just have to deal with the government.

However as Fred said, the two systems are very different. Let's suppose you're old and you can't walk because your hip has worn out. Then you can have hip replacement surgery. Here's how it works in the US: "You need a new hip? Got $40,000? Come on down and let's get it done!" And here's how it works in Canada: "You need a new hip? Got a year to wait? Get in line!"

So in the US, if you've got money or really good insurance, you get the new hip. Otherwise you don't. In Canada you get it regardless, but you have to hobble around in pain for a year.
fred rosenberger
lowercase baba
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  16

oh...disclaimer: I work for a major health care provider in the U.S.

I think the graph I'm thinking of was one put together by our CIO. it was basically social service spending on a per capita basis. So, it included healthcare, public transportation, counseling services, homeless shelters/food banks, education, smoking cessation clinics...everything that could have an impact on your health.

The graph was almost flat.

Further, there was also a graph of tax rates. to provide all these services, many countries have much higher taxes than the U.S. So...all those 'free' services comes out of your paycheck.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

fred rosenberger wrote:We excel at the care we CAN give. We suck at paying for it.


This is so true. And its why the US political system can't fix it. There is infinite demand for medical care, and no agreement on how to ration it. Normally, in a capitalistic society, you ration by money. But we don't want to do that. In a socialistic society, you ration it by bureaucracy. We don't want to do that either.
Tim McGuire
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Joined: Apr 30, 2003
Posts: 820

I think culture has a lot to do with it as well. Our culture is different here in the US. We are a lawsuit happy people. If we don't like the outcome of an interaction with health care providers, we are more likely to sue (and more likely to win an award). So, organizations and individuals must pay for malpractice insurance. This, of course, ads to the bill. It also makes it more likely that providers will practice "defensive medicine" where they will order extra procedures so they won't be telling a jury later on that they didn't order an expensive procedure that might or might not have applied.

and we are death adverse. Americans are more likely to employ extreme measures to get a few more months of life, disregarding the quality of that life. I think this goes a long way in explaining that absurd bar chart we see above. I've never been immersed in another culture, but hospice here, while it is slowly gaining respect, is pretty much a dirty word and is punished in many ways. I'd like to hear from people who live outside USA if they agree with me.
Kaustubh G Sharma
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Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 1270

No doubt US spends the most on healthcare but do citizen get the advantage of it? Healthcare companies in US become billionaire pretty soon and they concentrate more to stop providing relief to their customer and for that they bribe doctors via bonus if they reject healthcare bills, they recruit people who figure out possible false in terms and conditions by looking customer history. They don't care about the pain their customer is going through.

Hillary Clinton proposed a solution over this healthcare when Bill was president. But I think this moment is crashed by these billionaire companies, having lot of contribution in government for sure. How many of you got the advantage of having healthcare?

Movie contains real stories of people suffered by this healthcare system and lost their dear ones because of it. I think , you only realize a problem's depth until you suffered from it.

I don't know much about Michael Moore. But if he's pointing something with true examples and if we can make our system more better by comparing with good once or by providing proper solution, then I guess he is doing nothing wrong.
Kaustubh G Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 1270

Tim McGuire wrote:

and we are death adverse. Americans are more likely to employ extreme measures to get a few more months of life, disregarding the quality of that life. I think this goes a long way in explaining that absurd bar chart we see above. I've never been immersed in another culture, but hospice here, while it is slowly gaining respect, is pretty much a dirty word and is punished in many ways. I'd like to hear from people who live outside USA if they agree with me.


Agree with you that culture is a big parameter which separate human. But commonly we all human are same, may be people do things differently but they all have common factors that unite them. And if you've a system which is most suitable for us than what's wrong to adopt it? we all love our family, we have emotions, we want everyone in our family happy and safe. Than why don't we do something to change the system who could affect our life or life of someone we love?
Kaustubh G Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 1270

fred rosenberger wrote:

Further, there was also a graph of tax rates. to provide all these services, many countries have much higher taxes than the U.S. So...all those 'free' services comes out of your paycheck.


Not very sure how correct it is. But here we GO with WIKI :)


Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1385
Also, there is a misconception that the U.S. is a western industrialized democracy. The U.S. is huge, and quite multicultural. It is as if you took a large western industrialized country and combined it with a few corrupt backward 3rd world countries so that the western industrialized part was about 67% and the backward corrupt 3rd world component was 33% of it.

(Note that European countries did not institute their social welfare policies until _after_ they had ditched their 3rd world colonies. Had they annexed them those countries, they would not have instituted those social welfare policies.)
Kaustubh G Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 1270

Frank Silbermann wrote:Also, there is a misconception that the U.S. is a western industrialized democracy. The U.S. is huge, and quite multicultural. It is as if you took a large western industrialized country and combined it with a few corrupt backward 3rd world countries so that the western industrialized part was about 67% and the backward corrupt 3rd world component was 33% of it.
ny
(Note that European countries did not institute their social welfare policies until _after_ they had ditched their 3rd world colonies. Had they annexed them those countries, they would not have instituted those social welfare policies.)


This backword corrupt 3rd world countries adding lot more to US economy what they're giving to them. At least not engaged in any blood money business and not made unfair decesion as a super power. You'll find world as you design it.
Frank Silbermann
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Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1385
Kaustubh G Sharma wrote:
Frank Silbermann wrote:Also, there is a misconception that the U.S. is a western industrialized democracy. The U.S. is huge, and quite multicultural. It is as if you took a large western industrialized country and combined it with a few corrupt backward 3rd world countries so that the western industrialized part was about 67% and the backward corrupt 3rd world component was 33% of it.
ny
(Note that European countries did not institute their social welfare policies until _after_ they had ditched their 3rd world colonies. Had they annexed them those countries, they would not have instituted those social welfare policies.)


This backword corrupt 3rd world countries adding lot more to US economy what they're giving to them. At least not engaged in any blood money business and not made unfair decesion as a super power. You'll find world as you design it.
I cannot dispute what you say. My point was not to insult 3rd world countries, nor even to claim that all of them were corrupt, but only to explain why America's domestic policies and human welfare statistics fall short of western industrialized democracies such as Canada or Finland.
marc weber
Sheriff

Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 11343

fred rosenberger wrote:... We excel at the care we CAN give. We suck at paying for it. However, it gets even more complicated...

Too true. I don't see the problem as "health care" per se, it's access to that care. And, indeed, that's where it gets even more complicated.

I don't see it as a single issue that can be "solved" with a single solution. It's a multitude of diverse, intertwined issues, and any progress will be gradual.


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Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4646
    
    5

marc weber wrote:I don't see it as a single issue that can be "solved" with a single solution. It's a multitude of diverse, intertwined issues, and any progress will be gradual.


Unfortunately, this means that the US politicians won't be able to do anything to help. They are good at making near trivial problems into intertwined messes, but if they start with a mess, they are hopeless.
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8803
    
    5
Lots of issues here, but one idea that hasn't come up yet is the wellness / preventative side of things. For example, most MDs in the US get almost no training in nutrition :yikes:

How does that compare with other parts of the world?


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Frank Silbermann
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 06, 2002
Posts: 1385
Bert Bates wrote:Lots of issues here, but one idea that hasn't come up yet is the wellness / preventative side of things. For example, most MDs in the US get almost no training in nutrition :yikes:

How does that compare with other parts of the world?
Is there all that much information about nutrition that requires someone with MD training to understand? If a layman is just as able to learn and apply the information, then maybe assigning the jobs to doctors would be inefficient.
Bert Bates
author
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 14, 2002
Posts: 8803
    
    5
Hey Frank,

Well however much nutritional info there is, it certainly isn't evenly distributed. Diseases like diabetes are hugely related to diet, and the costs to the victims and society are huge. So somewhere along the line - be it MDs or whoever - we're missing the boat from a diet perspective, and it's bad for all of us. Of course the personal, health-care, and societal costs of obesity are also tremendous, and a lot of obesity comes not from the quantity of food consumed, but instead from the quality, or lack thereof.

Then of course, there are the environmental impacts of poor diet choices and those choices - directly and indirectly - affect us all. For example, the fresh water required to produce one pound of beef, could fill six hot tubs (that's 3000 gallons).
Kaustubh G Sharma
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 13, 2010
Posts: 1270

I think the bottom line is most affective in the system. They face every problem first. Upper line doesn’t effect by it and they don't care because they're having money for it and middle layer don't want to know till they get affected. New system is not coming in light because it can ruin billion dollar business. Money making industry has become stronger than humanity. Sad
 
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