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How popular is SCEA/OCMJEA now?

Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
Well i am seeing a very less volume in the SCEA/OCMJEA certification forum now.
Is this certification not very popular now due to mandatory training from Oracle? Few of my fellow colleagues reached out to me in the last 6 months and were very disappointed after coming to know this mandatory training which seems to be overly expensive(Around $2000+ plus loss of work days). Overall it has made this certification around $3000+. We are yet to be fully recovered from the recession and almost 80% of the companies are not going to reimburse this amount for their employees.
So what are the options:
1) Oracle get rid of this mandatory training or make it affordable?
2) People go for other certifications - IBM SOA Architect etc....?

I have done this certification almost 13 months back...here in US i don't see Java Architect job postings which specifically mentions - SCEA/SCEA5/OCMJEA required....i think less than 5% job postings mention it. Though within an organization SCEA/SCEA5/OCMJEA certified folks are treated with respect.

What's your say regarding this? How this certification can regain it's popularity?

Ashutosh Sharma
SCJP 1.2, SCEA 5, Brainbench certified J2EE Developer, Documentum Certified Professional
Blog : http://scea5-passingpart2and3.blogspot.com/
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
Hi Sharma,

as a result of the introduction of the mandatory course I have ceased using Java & am switching to Python.
I am also switching from MySQL to PostgreSQL because MySQL is owned by Oracle now.

I have my Programmer & Master Developer certifications. I was going to take all the Java certifications but am not taking anymore now.
I have over 10 years Java experience but I don't want anything to do with Oracle & therefore Java as a result,

cheers
Paul Balm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 13, 2008
Posts: 63
To put it politely, the fact that there a course is now mandatory for the certification is not a very good reason for using Java, or not using Java. You've been in this discussion before.

I would say that changing the price of certification in terms of money from €700 to €2800 has a big impact (the difference in time is not so much). Here are some graphs from Google trends, just for fun. What surprises me is that there was no spike in activity in the first half of 2011, when Oracle had announced the course requirement and -I suppose- many people wanted to complete their ongoing SCEA projects before the deadline.


SCJP 1.4 -- SCJD Java 2 -- OCM JEA 5
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
Hi Paul,

in my opinion it is a good reson to stop using Java.

This is a bad decision in my opinion & I don't want anything to do with a company that makes bad decisions especially when those decisions impact my career.

The next bad decision is probably just around the corner
Andrew Monkhouse
author and jackaroo
Marshal Commander

Joined: Mar 28, 2003
Posts: 11460
    
  94

Cathal Mullan wrote:I have ceased using Java & am switching to Python.
Cathal Mullan wrote:I don't want anything to do with a company that makes bad decisions especially when those decisions impact my career.




While I admire your dedication to your ideals, they are impacting your career:

331 Java jobs in Seattle, WA
96 Python jobs in Seattle, WA

77 MySQL jobs in Seattle, WA
13 PostgreSQL and 13 Postgres jobs in Seattle, WA

747 Java jobs in London, UK
199 Python jobs in London, UK

358 MySQL jobs in London, UK
29 PostgreSQL and 10 Postgres jobs in London, UK


The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 5: paper version from Amazon, PDF from Apress, Online reference: Books 24x7 Personal blog
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
Hey Andrew,

yeah you are right there are significantly more Java jobs out there. I started my own software company & I was going to use Java & MySQL but changed my plans as a result.

My fear is that Oracle is going to try & capitalise monetarily off Java & MySQL & the mandatory courses are the 1st sign off this coupled with their lawsuit against Google.

I don't want to be held at their mercy if they decide to impose other fees.

In my opinion Oracles objectives aren't inline with Suns ethos for Java & the open source support for Java will wane.

Maybe I'll be proved wrong but I don't want to take the risk,

cheers for the shout
Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
Out of all the Java certifications only SCEA and SCJD has got into this mandatory training - right?
Remaining certifications are as it is.
So other certifications and Java hasn't lost popularity i will say. Still 50% of the World's programmers are using Java and it is going to stay here.
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
Hi Sharma,

I was going to take the rest of the exams & then do the Architect exam to finish. But I'm not investing in certifications if I cannot achieve the highest certification.

Yes you are correct Java is the worlds most popular programming language, but with a big help from open source development.
In my opinion Oracle will move to completely own Java. They brought Master Developer & Architect certifications "inline" with Oracles other certifications &
I predict Oracle will move to bring Java & MySQL "inline" with existing Oracle products by changing licensing & charging for these products.

If this happens I predict open source support for Java will dry up & Java will be consigned for big business like Oracle databases.
I am jumping ship before I go down with it,

cheers for the shout
Paul Balm
Ranch Hand

Joined: Dec 13, 2008
Posts: 63
Even if Oracle can make Java completely proprietary (even if it's not legal, it might be possible in practice by suing, for example), it's obvious to me that Java is what it is due to the contributions from the open source community. It needs the continued support and contributions and it would be extremely unwise to shut the community out. I don't see that happening at all. I think the chances that Java is simply replaced by a more modern language, possibly running on the JVM, are much higher.

But that's not really the point.

For me, the certifications are valuable regardless, because they show proficiency of a certain level on a given platform. What platform will eventually be irrelevant, because we'll all need to learn new technologies sooner than we may think. It's not really about Java, it's about knowing one of the major platforms well.

When hiring people, I don't think it matters what they know, it matters what they can learn. Certifications are to demonstrate that you have learned important technologies, and learned them well.

I don't know any Python certification, I don't think it exists.
Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
Hi Cathal,
I dont think Oracle is going to do this with Java.
And moreover i believe SCEA has become some what un affordable and nothing else.But if employer sponsors it then it's something that Java Architects should definitely do it.
Karthik K Venkatesan
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 22, 2011
Posts: 21
I started working on Part 2 now and will complete essay as well when part 2 is done. But I decided to not to go for the mandatory course. I will still put the certification with a short note about the course issue in my resume. I will explain with the transcripts to any potential employers, if they ask about the license details. I am sure they will understand. So my opinion is, we still have a workaround, which is not ideal way to deal though. I do see lot of requirements strongly prefer architect certifications these days. Just my 2 cents.
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
Hi Sharma,

I honestly don't trust them. I bet nobody here thought they would introduce mandatory courses for Java certifications. I was certainly shocked but I won't be duped again,

just my 2 cents,

cheers for the shout
Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
But I decided to not to go for the mandatory course. I will still put the certification with a short note about the course issue in my resume. I will explain with the transcripts to any potential employers, if they ask about the license details. I am sure they will understand. So my opinion is, we still have a workaround, which is not ideal way to deal though. I do see lot of requirements strongly prefer architect certifications these days.

That's not a bad idea. Anyway if anybody wants to check whether you are certified or not - give them the link where they can verify the part1, part2/part3 results. Oracle at the most won't give you the paper certificate but you are certified(which is great as it is without any training that makes it even more important).

When i interview somebody i goes with the knowledge level rather than tags "undergraduate" or "masters" or "certified" and moreover how much some one is willing to learn as new place is not exactly as the old place. Moreover i do check attitude, problem solving abilities, aptitude, team working, from grounds up(can code) etc...
I remember one of the interviews few years back in my last company at New York city office where one person with more than double of my experience(i should not be part of the interview panel ) was not willing to respond to any of the basic/fundamental questions and loosing control with every question. He was having a bag with almost every possible certifications in the world and ready to show his certificates for every question asked. My colleague who was the decision maker - didn't liked this attitude of the candidate and rejected him.
And i know many of my friends who haven't done even a single certification are really good. My take is certifications does help in getting your resume shortlisted but beyond that interviewer should be convinced that you have enough to succeed in the future job/position.

When i searched in Dice for job postings asking for SCEA-i could find only one:
http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/b/d/bdb1bbe69679b116aadbe7850dfea21a@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=SCEA&rating=99
Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
I honestly don't trust them. I bet nobody here thought they would introduce mandatory courses for Java certifications. I was certainly shocked but I won't be duped again,

Well there may be some reasons to make mandatory training for only SCJD and SCEA...may be they(Oracle Education) knows a better reason..may be they just want to make more money...who knows??
If you look at other certifications - PMP-it has a requirement of 35/40 hrs of PM education too for many years...the cheapest training for it in US costs around $130.
TOGAF9-before that, TOGAF8 or earlier-one just needs to attend the classroom training and with some basic evaluation one is TOGAF certified. But TOGAF9 - part 2(scenerio based)-most of the TOGAF9 passed folks says that one should go for the training. Though OpenGroup hasn't talked about any mandatory training. Some of the training institutes are charging almost $2000-$3000 for these trainings.
The impact of this change in TOGAF certification is that you will find a lot of TOGAF certified(8 or lower) but very few TOGAF 9 certified candidates. And almost 80% TOGAF9 certified candidates were TOGAF8 certified and they took bridge exam to get TOGAF9.

So every company/organization/group is different and their certifications are also different.

My 2 cents - mandatory training may bring down the popularity of SCEA.
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
Hey Sharma,

my gripe with the mandatory courses is that they are not necessary to pass the exams. I did my Master Developer with no training & got a 94% in 3 months.

I would guess that most of the current certified Architects didn't go to courses either. In my opinion it is purely financially motivated.

I think the dwindling attendance at the Master Developer & Architect forms are symptoms of flagging support already
Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
I completely agree
Sunderam Goplalan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 10, 2011
Posts: 75
Yes I also believe the mandatory courses are purely financially motivated. People with more than 10 years, like myself and others, don't need any training to pass the certification as our day-to-day
work involved most of the themes covered in certification. Futhermore even people with less experience can come up with elegant design solutions using books, seminars etc. Therefor this certification course
requirement is redundant! What's more shocking to me is the COST! Why would one pay 2000 or 990 bugs to attend courses for over just five days. In my opinion that much cost may be justified for credits in certain
MBA courses. That's not to belittle Java classes, but it's on the higher side. I hope someone sues Oracle for introducing the mandatory course requirement -


SCJP 5.0 , SCEA Java EE 5, TOGAF Certified
Karthik K Venkatesan
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 22, 2011
Posts: 21

When i searched in Dice for job postings asking for SCEA-i could find only one:
http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch...ce=19&FREE_TEXT=SCEA&rating=99


Interesting. I am a contractor, so I receive daily 50+ mails about contract java opportunities from recruiters. Whenever the requirement is for architect, it usually mention about certifications and it is preferred/required.

Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
Interesting. I am a contractor, so I receive daily 50+ mails about contract java opportunities from recruiters. Whenever the requirement is for architect, it usually mention about certifications and it is preferred/required.

Are you in US? I am happy if that is the case.
Karthik K Venkatesan
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 22, 2011
Posts: 21
yes Sharma. I am in Pacific North West. I see most of the requirements from east coast (NYC, Albany, Boston and Ohio) area. Good for you.

shivaram kumar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 10, 2012
Posts: 6
Sharma Ashutosh wrote:Well i am seeing a very less volume in the SCEA/OCMJEA certification forum now.
Is this certification not very popular now due to mandatory training from Oracle? Few of my fellow colleagues reached out to me in the last 6 months and were very disappointed after coming to know this mandatory training which seems to be overly expensive(Around $2000+ plus loss of work days). Overall it has made this certification around $3000+. We are yet to be fully recovered from the recession and almost 80% of the companies are not going to reimburse this amount for their employees.
So what are the options:
1) Oracle get rid of this mandatory training or make it affordable?
2) People go for other certifications - IBM SOA Architect etc....?

I have done this certification almost 13 months back...here in US i don't see Java Architect job postings which specifically mentions - SCEA/SCEA5/OCMJEA required....i think less than 5% job postings mention it. Though within an organization SCEA/SCEA5/OCMJEA certified folks are treated with respect.

What's your say regarding this? How this certification can regain it's popularity?

I assume, classroom training is mandatory... see Fee in Canada (C$ 5150)
5150 + 1150 (fee for 3 (parts of) exam) = 6300 + 850 (tax) = 7150...

Reality check
Candidate needs to earn approx 9500 CAD pay its taxes on income and save 7150 to Pay for SCEA...

I wish to be SCEA someday...

Sharma Ashutosh
Bartender

Joined: Apr 06, 2001
Posts: 346
In USA there is no tax for the exam voucher or Sun ePractice exams-Is it taxable in Canada?.
While visiting this URL http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/show_desc.redirect?dc=D68136GC10 I am finding that it's cost is $1650 for self study/CD-ROM rather than $4000 for Classroom training.
And moreover exam cost hasn't changed a lot - when i did it was $900 for all the 3 exams.

When i had a chat with Oracle Education person - he told me that one needs to go for only instructor led classroom class and not any virtual class room or self study or CD ROM based training to fulfill the requirement for OCMJEA/SCEA. But if you refer to this thread(http://www.coderanch.com/t/579768/java-Architect-SCEA/certification/Training-Location-Online-Live-Web) - I don't think everybody is on the same page. According to some of them - one can take virtual class room training.
shivaram kumar
Greenhorn

Joined: May 10, 2012
Posts: 6
Self study does not fulfill the prerequisite
Cathal Mullan
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 20, 2011
Posts: 118
I commented in this thread previously that I believed Oracle would change licensing agreements.

I searched on Google & found out that licensing has already begun to be changed.

Take a look at this link:

Oracle Java to Be Removed from Ubuntu in Favour of OpenJDK

"Ubuntu is removing Oracle’s version of Java from their repositories in favour of OpenJDK because of a licensing change by Oracle"

The change has already begun, I just didn't notice

 
I agree. Here's the link: http://aspose.com/file-tools
 
subject: How popular is SCEA/OCMJEA now?