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Google guilty in Oracle's case over Java. End of Java seen

Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

I am not a lawyer, and I can't tell what the verdict means.

But it sure looks like bad news for Google and Android to me.

I think the verdict is wrong, but then, I've not seen the facts and IANAL.

Clearly this is the end for Java
William P O'Sullivan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 28, 2012
Posts: 859

Nope.

Read the court docs. Jury cannot find real damage (yet), but definitely some form of patent violation (9 lines of Java!!)

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Hussein Baghdadi
clojure forum advocate
Bartender

Joined: Nov 08, 2003
Posts: 3479

I can't see how this is the end of Java.

Maybe the end of Android? maybe the end of Java syntax on Android?

But the end of Java?
Sorry but no, not to me.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

William P O'Sullivan wrote:Read the court docs. Jury cannot find real damage (yet), but definitely some form of patent violation (9 lines of Java!!)


No way I'm reading the docs. IANAL.

I believe you are wrong, the patent part of the trial has not yet started. This was about copyright on the code (your 9 lines) and the APIs for
all of the main Java libraries (java.lang, java.util, etc.)

The verdict was restricted to "Copyright" and only if the legal issue of whether API can be copyrighted. I don't understand why they proceeded to trial without addressing that fundamental legal issue first.
Greg Charles
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 01, 2001
Posts: 2861
    
  11

Why would it be the end of Java, Pat?
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

If I was running Google, I would not want to be forced to agree with Oracle's terms.
If I was running IBM, I would not want to be forced to agree with Oracle's terms.

Java is not all that much of a language. The power is in the JVM and the widely used libraries. If competitors to Oracle can't use them, they will
move to another language.
Greg Charles
Sheriff

Joined: Oct 01, 2001
Posts: 2861
    
  11

I'm not really seeing that. IBM makes its own JDK, and has a suite of middleware that runs on a Java. Do you see this decision ending that? If I understand it right, Google tried to create their own version of Java without permission or paying a license fee to Oracle, and that's the root of the lawsuit. I could see it being the end of Java on Android, but even that's a stretch. I'd guess some money will change hands, some corporate lawyers will justify their existence for another year or two, and then everything will go back to normal. As a non-Android Java developer, I don't expect to be affected at all.
Jeanne Boyarsky
author & internet detective
Marshal

Joined: May 26, 2003
Posts: 30944
    
158

As if Google didn't go after other companies. And IBM has way too much invested in Java to run away.

I wonder if someone keeps track of how many times the death of Java has been predicted.


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Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Greg Charles wrote:I'm not really seeing that. IBM makes its own JDK, and has a suite of middleware that runs on a Java. Do you see this decision ending that? If I understand it right, Google tried to create their own version of Java without permission or paying a license fee to Oracle, and that's the root of the lawsuit.


I'm not confident that anyone "understands it right". I sure don't claim to grok it.

When Java was open, it was easy for big companies to adopt it. One can argue about how open it really was under Sun, but Sun's business was selling hardware, and gave away tons of software over many years in an effort to sell hardware. While IBM still sells hardware, a bigger and growing part of their business is selling consulting services, middleware, DB2, etc. This directly conflicts with what Oracle sells: the old Sun hardware line, consulting services, middleware and the Oracle DB.

When IBM markets a ton of Java based consulting to clients, it makes it a lot easier for all the rest of the consultants in the world to say "We are just as smart as IBM, and cheaper". I know I've done exactly that sale.

Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Jeanne Boyarsky wrote:As if Google didn't go after other companies. And IBM has way too much invested in Java to run away. I wonder if someone keeps track of how many times the death of Java has been predicted.


IBM has invested a ton, but they may decide to renamed it IBava or something that doesn't violate Oracle's invented intellectual property.

I have written many times here in the Ranch that I think Java has peaked. For many reasons, starting with how big the needed technologies are, and how hard it is to write good multi-threaded code to use modern 4, 6 or 16 core processors.

Will this case kill Java dead, so no one will use it in 2013? Obviously no.

But IMHO, this is another wound in Java's ecosystem. Its no longer the young fair-haired child that is loved by all and likely to grow up to be President.
Jesper de Jong
Java Cowboy
Saloon Keeper

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Posts: 14349
    
  22

Pat Farrell wrote:I am not a lawyer, and I can't tell what the verdict means.
...
Clearly this is the end for Java

You don't know what it means, but "clearly this is the end for Java"? Sounds like a huge leap to make if you don't even know what the verdict means.

If you implement your own JRE, like IBM, HP and other companies do, then you need to get a license from Oracle, or formerly from Sun. It has always been like this. That's why the Apache Foundation was mad at Sun and now Oracle, because in the Apache Harmony project they tried to implement their own JRE and Sun / Oracle didn't want to work with them to license it.

The lawsuit against Google doesn't change anything in that regard that would turn IBM or HP away from Java.


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Tim Moores
Rancher

Joined: Sep 21, 2011
Posts: 2408
Movie at 11.
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4659
    
    5

Jesper de Jong wrote:You don't know what it means, but "clearly this is the end for Java"? Sounds like a huge leap to make if you don't even know what the verdict means.


No one knows what it means. Any one who opines that they know is lying. They don't even know if the hung jury means that the first section should result in a mistrail.

Jesper de Jong wrote:That's why the Apache Foundation was mad at Sun and now Oracle, because in the Apache Harmony project they tried to implement their own JRE and Sun / Oracle didn't want to work with them to license it.


Seems to me that its not a major leap of faith for someone else to be like the Apache folks and be mad at Oracle when it (Oracle) didn't want to work with them to license it.

Take a minute to take a deep breath and see which section of the Ranch this thread is in.

 
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subject: Google guilty in Oracle's case over Java. End of Java seen