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How do you feel about Java, vs other programming languages?

Jay Orsaw
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Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Posts: 356

So sorry if this has been posted a billion times in the past, but I'm curious where we stand? I've searched and I've seen topics of Java vs C#, etc.


Someone asked me to say what I liked Java and I explained it, which then left a bunch of C heads to come in and bash Java. Mostly with "pointers" and "memory management." Then other things like Java is JIT so it could never be an OS, or be used in a whole bnch of things. One even tried to say there is no 3D engine(JMonkeyEngine.....).....???


I love Java, and I've done C++ and other langs, but Java comes out on top for me. I guess it really depends what you're trying to program. For me I'm applications, client, server, mobile and web.

It's sad to see so many people talk down Java, but hey let em hate :p
Bear Bibeault
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Joined: Jan 10, 2002
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  66

TIOBE


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Jay Orsaw
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Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Posts: 356

Bear Bibeault wrote:TIOBE



Yeah we went over that. Tiobe is greatg.... Interesting how far Obj-C has come... Also surprised VB is still in the top 10.... I also think it's funny it's C, Java, Obj-C, C++, C#... LOL...

Tiobe is great, I'll try to read more uip on it, though I wanted to see what the RanchHeads have to say about it... Interesting that Java was really high, slumped in 2005(where it got it's award)? then came back... Now it's stgill up there but hopefully FX changes that(except you don't think so :p)
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4655
    
    5

Jay Orsaw wrote:So sorry if this has been posted a billion times in the past, but I'm curious where we stand? I've searched and I've seen topics of Java vs C#, etc.


Why do you care? Its in the top ten today. It won't be in ten years. It will probably be like Cobol, in use 20, 30, or even 40 years longer than anyone thought possible.

It is possible that some language using the Java name will be popular in a decade, but only if it changes in ways that will fundamentally break existing code. Java has far too many warts and kludges to be used with its current incremental approach. See Generics as an example, something that takes a 500 page FAQ to explain. Nothing in a language should take 500 pages. A good language can be described in maybe 50 pages.

I've kept my Java In a Nutshell books from when I started writing Java in the '90s. In three editions, the book has tripled in size. The book is now impossible, nothing as complex as Java can be put in a nutshell.
Jay Orsaw
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Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Posts: 356

Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:So sorry if this has been posted a billion times in the past, but I'm curious where we stand? I've searched and I've seen topics of Java vs C#, etc.


Why do you care? Its in the top ten today. It won't be in ten years. It will probably be like Cobol, in use 20, 30, or even 40 years longer than anyone thought possible.

It is possible that some language using the Java name will be popular in a decade, but only if it changes in ways that will fundamentally break existing code. Java has far too many warts and kludges to be used with its current incremental approach. See Generics as an example, something that takes a 500 page FAQ to explain. Nothing in a language should take 500 pages. A good language can be described in maybe 50 pages.

I've kept my Java In a Nutshell books from when I started writing Java in the '90s. In three editions, the book has tripled in size. The book is now impossible, nothing as complex as Java can be put in a nutshell.



Will it be in the top 10 in 10 years? Maybe, maybe not. I agree that it is very complex, but why is that a bad thing? Being able to have a ton of powerful libraries is very important. Also just because a book gets bigger, again, isnt' a bad thing.. It's good to see a language expand, but I understand that it's a big language, and it might be able to be done faster in other languages, with less code, which is also understandable... We all have our own opinions though...
Pat Farrell
Rancher

Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4655
    
    5

Jay Orsaw wrote: I agree that it is very complex, but why is that a bad thing? Being able to have a ton of powerful libraries is very important. Also just because a book gets bigger, again, isnt' a bad thing.. It's good to see a language expand, but I understand that it's a big language, and it might be able to be done faster in other languages, with less code, which is also understandable... We all have our own opinions though...


generics were hacked onto the language and are a disaster. Its too complex for typical programmers to understand. Just look at the questions here on the Ranch, where people are smarter than the average cowpoke.

The issue with tons of libraries is not that they are bad because there are a lot of them. They are bad because each is different, has different calling conventions, ways to handle callbacks, amount of multi-threading support, etc.

Lots of libraries that are all orthogonal and well integrated and consistent is great. That is not what Java has.
Jay Orsaw
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Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Posts: 356

Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote: I agree that it is very complex, but why is that a bad thing? Being able to have a ton of powerful libraries is very important. Also just because a book gets bigger, again, isnt' a bad thing.. It's good to see a language expand, but I understand that it's a big language, and it might be able to be done faster in other languages, with less code, which is also understandable... We all have our own opinions though...


generics were hacked onto the language and are a disaster. Its too complex for typical programmers to understand. Just look at the questions here on the Ranch, where people are smarter than the average cowpoke.

The issue with tons of libraries is not that they are bad because there are a lot of them. They are bad because each is different, has different calling conventions, ways to handle callbacks, amount of multi-threading support, etc.

Lots of libraries that are all orthogonal and well integrated and consistent is great. That is not what Java has.


Yeah I agree, generics are useful, but they are a pain, and like you said there is a lot of questions about them....

I agree with this also about the classes, everything is set up differently though, which can be pain, but personally I haven't been bothered by it, or really noticed that much of a difference....
Pat Farrell
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Joined: Aug 11, 2007
Posts: 4655
    
    5

Jay Orsaw wrote:Yeah I agree, generics are useful, but they are a pain, and like you said there is a lot of questions about them....
I agree with this also about the classes, everything is set up differently though, which can be pain...


When you want to have a large, professional software development team, you must do everything you can to reduce or eliminate pain. The expensive resource is the software engineers. How long it takes for them to do a job is directly related to "pain". The more pain, the longer and more expensive it is. The longer it takes them to learn how to work around pain, the more it costs, etc.

I have some issues with Java the language (generics, parallel processing) but most of my issues are the pain that the huge variety of overlapping and incompatible libraries cause when you try to solve problems that Java the language doesn't address.

I have literally spent months in meetings where folks argue whether a project should use Hibernate or not. Talk about pain. During all that time, we were not writing code to solve real problems.
Andy Jack
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Joined: Nov 22, 2012
Posts: 257
This is what i feel -


:P


Java Newbie with 72% in OCJP/SCJP - Super Confused Jobless Programmer.
I am a "newbie" too. Please verify my answers before you accept them.
Jay Orsaw
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Joined: Jun 14, 2011
Posts: 356

Pat Farrell wrote:
Jay Orsaw wrote:Yeah I agree, generics are useful, but they are a pain, and like you said there is a lot of questions about them....
I agree with this also about the classes, everything is set up differently though, which can be pain...


When you want to have a large, professional software development team, you must do everything you can to reduce or eliminate pain. The expensive resource is the software engineers. How long it takes for them to do a job is directly related to "pain". The more pain, the longer and more expensive it is. The longer it takes them to learn how to work around pain, the more it costs, etc.

I have some issues with Java the language (generics, parallel processing) but most of my issues are the pain that the huge variety of overlapping and incompatible libraries cause when you try to solve problems that Java the language doesn't address.

I have literally spent months in meetings where folks argue whether a project should use Hibernate or not. Talk about pain. During all that time, we were not writing code to solve real problems.


I've never experienced the issues you are, yeah there are a lot of backbone stuff to add onto your java, but never having such issues with libraries... Examples?
 
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subject: How do you feel about Java, vs other programming languages?