File APIs for Java Developers
Manipulate DOC, XLS, PPT, PDF and many others from your application.
http://aspose.com/file-tools
The moose likes Other Open Source Projects and the fly likes Tapestry ? Big Moose Saloon
  Search | Java FAQ | Recent Topics | Flagged Topics | Hot Topics | Zero Replies
Register / Login


Win a copy of Spring in Action this week in the Spring forum!
JavaRanch » Java Forums » Products » Other Open Source Projects
Bookmark "Tapestry ?" Watch "Tapestry ?" New topic
Author

Tapestry ?

Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

What is tapestry all about?


Groovy
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
I have found the introduction of Typestry from the book's home page.

You may find the introduction from this thread:
http://www.coderanch.com/t/62028/open-source/soul-purpose-Tapestry

Nick


SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Thanks. It would be great if someone could provide more info. Is Tapestry based only on java? :roll:
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Thanks. It would be great if someone could provide more info. Is Tapestry based only on java? :roll:


Yes on Java servlets. But no JSPs though. Yesteray tried developing a small app, have to admit i got lost getting it to work. Spent an uncomfortable couple of hours with tapestry yesterday. May be its just my problem though!
But i'm still curious..it looks *very* different from what i have seen/ experienced uptil now.
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

It would be great if someone could provide more info.

I also hope the author can give us some lights, as nowadays, there are lots of open source projects, and new frameworks.


Is Tapestry based only on java? :roll:

I guess yes. As the description said:

Tapestry represents state and behavior as standard Java objects, methods and properties.

So, it seems that Tapestry try to convert the state and behavior into Java objects, and let the object to keep track of any changes.

Nick
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I also hope the author can give us some lights, as nowadays, there are lots of open source projects, and new frameworks


Yes, I find that open sources are competing with Sun spec's. For e.g. Hibernate with JDO, Tapestry with JSF. It is debatable whether the trend is good.

You can read about Tapestry vs JSF

http://linuxintegrators.com/blog/acoliver/essay/?permalink=0095.html
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by karthik Guru:


Yes on Java servlets. But no JSPs though. Yesteray tried developing a small app, have to admit i got lost getting it to work. Spent an uncomfortable couple of hours with tapestry yesterday. May be its just my problem though!
But i'm still curious..it looks *very* different from what i have seen/ experienced uptil now.


Which web container did you try to integrate tapestry with. Could you please share the pain points?
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
Which web container did you try to integrate tapestry with. Could you please share the pain points?

I guess he may use Jakarta Tomcat version 5, but seems to me that we can adopt Tapestry in any containers, like Struts.

I will try to see whether it works on WSAD.

Nick
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Does Eclipse support tapestry?
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Tapestry is based only on java.
Tapestry is a powerful, open-source, all-Java framework for creating leading edge web applications in Java.



from
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry/
Lasse Koskela
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Does Eclipse support tapestry?

There's a Tapestry plugin named Spindle.


Author of Test Driven (2007) and Effective Unit Testing (2013) [Blog] [HowToAskQuestionsOnJavaRanch]
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
It seems like there is no one else who know Tapestry in details... Nick, Pradeep, karthik and me... All are just willing to learn new capibilities that we can do in Tapestry... I hope this will be solved, when Mr.Lewis comes here... Mmm... maybe 2morrow? Anyway, let's continue our discussion till we can figure out what really Tapestry is....


Co-author of SCMAD Exam Guide, Author of JMADPlus
SCJP1.2, CCNA, SCWCD1.4, SCBCD1.3, SCMAD1.0, SCJA1.0, SCJP6.0
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
In fact, I seldom use open source project, as you expected, companies are not willing to try new things. They will wait until the new stuffs have been widely adopted, and proven.

I just start learning Sturts on WSAD, however, other stuffs, like JSF, come out.

Nick
Mcgill Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 178
Is Tapestry a fully mature framework? On what scale is it being used in the industry?


Regards
Mcgill
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

It seems like there is no one else who know Tapestry in details... Nick, Pradeep, karthik and me...


Yes, that is a strong reason to win the book.
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Mcgill smith:
Is Tapestry a fully mature framework? On what scale is it being used in the industry?

I think it is not mature yet, at least in Thailand, in which I am currently residing in... Some developers out here don't even hear about the name "Tapestry"... But I guess it will be "BOOM" one day, since it's typically based on the view of a web application... Cos developers out here like to do view stuff more than the logic stuff behind...
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
In fact, I feel Typestry is quite new, and thus, it may now in the stage of *testing*, so see whether it is really useful, or whether it can be adopted by others.

BTW, Ko Ko, did you receive..... ?

Nick
Lasse Koskela
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Originally posted by Mcgill smith:
Is Tapestry a fully mature framework? On what scale is it being used in the industry?

Yes, Tapestry is "fully mature" but I wouldn't call it "widely used" by any means. I've bumbed into plenty of projects using Struts, for example, but I've only met one guy who has actually done something with Tapestry -- at home.

This is not to say that Tapestry wouldn't be ready for prime time. From what I've heard, Tapestry is actually a great framework. I guess it just needs attention...
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by Mcgill smith:
Is Tapestry a fully mature framework? On what scale is it being used in the industry?


I can see this article on Tapestry dated 2001
http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2001/11/21/tapestry.html.

It is year 2004 , Tapestry is still not widley heard about. I guess it is slowly maturing like Web Services. :roll:
Lasse Koskela
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Originally posted by Nicholas Cheung:
In fact, I feel Typestry is quite new...

Howard Lewis Ship started the Tapestry project in early 2000. I believe Craig McClanahan started Struts early 2000 as well.
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Check out this page. Good info on Tapestry
http://www.java201.com/resources/browse/60-all.html
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

I guess it is slowly maturing like Web Services. :roll:


Is it because of the learning curve or because there are'nt many contributors thereby slowing down development?. Only the author can answer.

When I tried learning the framework, there was no hint of HttpRequest or Session anywhere..these are the things most of us are familiar with before we start off on a framework.

Struts does'nt hide from us the fact that it is more of an extension to servlets? So there is some confort zone there. I had a feelign that tapestry does. Not sure if its a good /bad thing!

I might be wrong..I managed to spend just an hour / 2 with the framework.
This is just a trivial reason. But stuff like this might be a put off for most developers preventing its rapid adoption?

..just random thoughts
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

Struts does'nt hide from us the fact that it is more of an extension to servlets? So there is some confort zone there. I had a feelign that tapestry does. Not sure if its a good /bad thing!

Struts aims to provide a framework that implement the MVC model 2 with J2EE, and thus, it definitely gives others feeling that it is a servlet.

For Tapestry, since it is already a Java objects that holds the state of the session objects, you may expect each of the object is from a certain session, which you may feel it as a holder of session data.

Nick
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Karthik feels that session objects should not be hidden from developers.
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Lasse Koskela:

Howard Lewis Ship started the Tapestry project in early 2000. I believe Craig McClanahan started Struts early 2000 as well.


Then, Lasse, I'm wondering why Struts is growing so fast(at least faster than Tapestry) in the industry... Maybe it is because of the usage nature of each of them... At least here in Thailand, developers tends to use Struts more than Tapestry... Mmm, I'm not comparing apple and orange, but the number of people who like apple and orange...
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Check out this page. Good info on Tapestry
http://www.java201.com/resources/browse/60-all.html


FYI, I have just read the link that was provided by Pradeep and I found out that the following info would also be knowledgable to people out here... When seeing what are good in Struts and Tapestry, I hope we would be able to figure out what actual things each of them can do... Here we go...


Struts Advantages
-If one has done Servlet/JSP development before it does not take long to pick up on Struts. There is a more of a learning curve associated with Tapestry because it is quite a bit different than most popular web application frameworks.
-Struts is widely accepted and used in the Java community. It is probably not very difficult to find a good Struts developer if you need one for your project. Tapestry seems to really be gaining some momentum in the developer community, but there still are a lot of skilled Java developers who have no idea what Tapestry is.
-Since Struts is so widely used and popular there are many resources available for working with Struts. Compared to most open source software Tapestry has a good amount of resources and documentation available, though not as many as are available for Struts.

Tapestry Advantages
-You write Tapestry applications without being concerned about the Servlet API and without writing the typical "plumbing" code associated with Servlet application development. Even though Struts simplifies working with Servlets and JSPs, the Servlet API is still in your face.
-Tapestry page templates are standard HTML with a few special attributes and tags recognized by Tapestry. This can be a major benefit if you are working on a team that has skilled HTML designers who do not know Java or JSP.
-Because Tapestry pages are standard HTML, HTML WYSIWYG editors can be used to edit and preview the page. When a page needs to have its look tweaked you do not have to fire up the application server and wait for the JSP to recompile.
-Tapestry does not require an overarching, application-wide configuration file. Each page in a Tapestry application is an application in its own right and changes to one page will not affect developers working on other pages because navigation is not glued together by a configuration file.
-Tapestry has great error reporting. If you make a mistake in a page template or page specification, Tapestry will provide you with the line number of the error. This feature helps speed up development time, especially when you are new to Tapestry.
-Developing in Tapestry is fun! This may sound kind of corny, but developing a web application in Tapestry just seems more natural and fun than writing a web application using some of the other popular frameworks. Developing Tapestry applications using a component-based architecture is very similar to developing traditional GUI applications.

[ May 25, 2004: Message edited by: Ko Ko Naing ]
Geoff Longman
Greenhorn

Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 16
Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:


Then, Lasse, I'm wondering why Struts is growing so fast(at least faster than Tapestry) in the industry... Maybe it is because of the usage nature of each of them... At least here in Thailand, developers tends to use Struts more than Tapestry... Mmm, I'm not comparing apple and orange, but the number of people who like apple and orange...


Its because Struts was a Jakarta project from the beginning while Tapestry only entered Jakarta this year. 'Apache' and 'Jakarta' are brand names that instantly add credibility to a project. Tapestry was hosted over at Sourceforge for years with much less visibility. The fact that the folks at Jakarta accepted Tapestry into the fold says a whole lot about how solid Tapestry really is.

Geoff
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

The fact that the folks at Jakarta accepted Tapestry into the fold says a whole lot about how solid Tapestry really is


It has been 4 years since Tapestry is around but it isn't famous. I dont think open sources have to come from Jakata to be widely used. :roll:
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Karthik feels that session objects should not be hidden from developers.


No i did'nt mean that. My point was that when you go about learning some new stuff, the first thing you probably do is search for things you are comfortable with, you already know. It was'nt the case here and i felt a little lost when i started reading the chapter..that's all.

Btw, found that tapestry has something called a Visit object that every page class has access to. That is the HttpSesson equivalent.

Now i'm beginning to accept a lot more , as i go through the tutorial
Gregg Bolinger
GenRocket Founder
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jul 11, 2001
Posts: 15299
    
    6

Originally posted by karthik Guru:

Btw, found that tapestry has something called a Visit object that every page class has access to. That is the HttpSesson equivalent.

Now i'm beginning to accept a lot more , as i go through the tutorial


Tapestry give you access to the Servlet API objects HttpServletRequest, HttpServletResponse, and HttpSession via the IRequestCycle.


GenRocket - Experts at Building Test Data
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
I do agree with Pradeep... It's not supposed to come to Jakarta to be famous and widel used... Do u mean if something that originates from Sourceforge cannot be widely used or famous without going to Jakarta?

I think if something is really good, it should be able to compete with others without joining the competitors... For example, BEA got a really good WebLogic and it is a lot smaller than IBM for BEA to compete with WebSphere... Do u guys recognize the success story of BEA?
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:


Tapestry give you access to the Servlet API objects HttpServletRequest, HttpServletResponse, and HttpSession via the IRequestCycle.


Cool! Is it dependent on any particular Server spec version or it works with all versions including 2.4?
[ May 26, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Karthik and Ko Ko

What is the learning curve for Tapestry? :roll:
Geoff Longman
Greenhorn

Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 16
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


Cool! Is it dependent on any particular Server spec version or it works with all versions including 2.4?

[ May 26, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]


Tapestry itself stays in the low version numbers internally, but since the specs are upwards compatible there's no reason you can't use Tapestry in a container that is using 2.4.
Geoff Longman
Greenhorn

Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 16
Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:
I do agree with Pradeep... It's not supposed to come to Jakarta to be famous and widel used... Do u mean if something that originates from Sourceforge cannot be widely used or famous without going to Jakarta?

I think if something is really good, it should be able to compete with others without joining the competitors... For example, BEA got a really good WebLogic and it is a lot smaller than IBM for BEA to compete with WebSphere... Do u guys recognize the success story of BEA?


Struts and Tapestry both started about the same time. Struts was always a Jakarta project and thus instantly gained mindshare because everybody knows about the Apache brand.

Tapestry on the other hand was one of many thousands of sourceforge projects. I never said that a Sourceforge project can't become famous, its just harder to get heard in a crowd.

And, forget the BEA/WebSphere comparison. BEA bought out Weblogic in 1998, well before IBM had WebSphere (a search at The Register shows a press release stating that the first cut of WebSphere would ship in the 3rd quarter of 1999). Plus, what is now known as the Weblogic server used to be called Tengah and that was around in 1997.

Your logic just doesn't hold up I'm afraid.

Geoff
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Struts was always a Jakarta project and thus instantly gained mindshare because everybody knows about the Apache brand.


What about Hibernate ? It does not come from Jakarta ? :roll:
Karthik Guru
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
May be its just the learning curve and some politics ;-)
If we can get to a point where in we can have a tapestry discusion forum in javaranch, as geoff rightly pointed out, it w'd be a great starting point.
We have to convince our managers and get them to use tapestry in the next project. This is the least we can do to promote this framework.
Ko Ko Naing
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Geoff Longman:

Struts and Tapestry both started about the same time. Struts was always a Jakarta project and thus instantly gained mindshare because everybody knows about the Apache brand.

Your logic just doesn't hold up I'm afraid.


So u think that Tapestry should be under well-known brand to be famous and widely used? I think this kind of logic doesn't hold up as well...

As for BEA and IBM case, don't u think BEA would be afraid of IBM's penetration to the App Server market? Should BEA sell their WebLogic to IBM to make it widely used and famous in the market?
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

As for BEA and IBM case, don't u think BEA would be afraid of IBM's penetration to the App Server market? Should BEA sell their WebLogic to IBM to make it widely used and famous in the market?

It really depends, as each product may have their own set of IDEs, and plug-ins.

IBM cannot stop the development of WSAD becos JBuilder has been in the market for a longer time, as IBM may think it should have sth special, and fit better to their app. server.

Thus, BEA also thinks WL has some advantages over WAS, so do IBM. Otherwise, one of the markets may eventually vanished, but now, this is not the case. Each AS has its own supporters.

Nick
Howard Lewis Ship
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 21, 2004
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:
I do agree with Pradeep... It's not supposed to come to Jakarta to be famous and widel used... Do u mean if something that originates from Sourceforge cannot be widely used or famous without going to Jakarta?

I think if something is really good, it should be able to compete with others without joining the competitors... For example, BEA got a really good WebLogic and it is a lot smaller than IBM for BEA to compete with WebSphere... Do u guys recognize the success story of BEA?



Well then, the last year and a half didn't happen then, did it?

Hibernate is the exception, rather than the rule. Hibernate is quality software, had a very specific niche to fill, and did something unusual ... it muscled out some established open source projects to fill that niche.

O/R mapping is very difficult, but is also more clearly constrained than web application development. Web app development tends to mean different things to differnet people, which makes it more difficult to stand out in the crowd, and explains why there are about 40 open source frameworks in this general area.

Tapestry's move to Jakarta was accompanied by the adoption of the Apache meritocracy guidelines -- we vote on things. We rarely disagree but it does happen. I have no more rights than anyone of the other committers ... though it is accepted that I see things more deeply than others.

The move to Jakarta and the meritocracy rules have motivated the other developers to be more active, both in code and in support. That alone justifies the vast effort of the move. Why has this happened? I think it is psychologically complex, but basically the cachet of Jakarta prioritized people's efforts. Literally, being able to list "worked on Jakarta open-source project" was more valuable than "worked on SourceForge open source project". And so the system works; this is the "currency" of open source -- not dollars but mindshare.


--<br />Howard M. Lewis Ship<br />Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant<br />Creator, Jakarta Tapestry<br />Creator, Jakarta HiveMind<br /><a href="http://howardlewisship.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://howardlewisship.com</a>
 
With a little knowledge, a cast iron skillet is non-stick and lasts a lifetime.
 
subject: Tapestry ?