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JSPs and tapestry competing technologies?

Karthik Guru
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Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
If yes, does that mean that tapestry does'nt really benefit from advance in
servlet/jsp specifications?
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Here is a blog on JSF vs tapestry

http://linuxintegrators.com/blog/acoliver/essay/?permalink=0095.html


Groovy
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

If yes, does that mean that tapestry does'nt really benefit from advance in
servlet/jsp specifications?

I dont think they are competing technologies, as Tapestry is built on top of Servlet.

I may regard it as something like Sturts, defining a framework, and use existing technologies to implement it.

Nick


SCJP 1.2, OCP 9i DBA, SCWCD 1.3, SCJP 1.4 (SAI), SCJD 1.4, SCWCD 1.4 (Beta), ICED (IBM 287, IBM 484, IBM 486), SCMAD 1.0 (Beta), SCBCD 1.3, ICSD (IBM 288), ICDBA (IBM 700, IBM 701), SCDJWS, ICSD (IBM 348), OCP 10g DBA (Beta), SCJP 5.0 (Beta), SCJA 1.0 (Beta), MCP(70-270), SCBCD 5.0 (Beta), SCJP 6.0, SCEA for JEE5 (in progress)
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

Here is a blog on JSF vs tapestry

I guess he wants to know about JSP

In addition, JSF seems another different story. It is an compoent based framework, while Tapestry seems defines a framework to keep track of stateful objects.

Nick
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Here is one more link
http://javatapestry.blogspot.com/2004_01_01_javatapestry_archive.html#107452647019159028
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I guess he wants to know about JSP


I dont think JSP is competing with Tpestry. That is reason why I posted regarding JSF.

Javalobby thread on JSF vs tapestry
http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jspa?forumID=61&threadID=10719&start=0&mode=flat
Karthik Guru
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Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Ok too many terms here I really dont know what JSF is..
Anyways Servlets yes. This one does'nt use JSPs though. So that kind of eliminates JSTL, tag libs and what not. I guess in Struts for example we are asked not to use logic tags and instead are being asked to use JSTL. Not a big deal. But atleast the new changes can be incorporated.

Tapestry seems to have a different rendering engine then? Like for eg XSLT
engine operating on XML for view generation?
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Originally posted by karthik Guru:
If yes, does that mean that tapestry does'nt really benefit from advance in
servlet/jsp specifications?


From Tapestry home page

Tapestry is an alternative to scripting environments such as JavaServer Pages or Velocity. Tapestry goes far further, providing a complete framework for creating extremely dynamic applications with minimal amounts of coding.


Ko Ko Naing
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Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by karthik Guru:
Ok too many terms here I really dont know what JSF is..
Anyways Servlets yes. This one does'nt use JSPs though. So that kind of eliminates JSTL, tag libs and what not. I guess in Struts for example we are asked not to use logic tags and instead are being asked to use JSTL. Not a big deal. But atleast the new changes can be incorporated.

Tapestry seems to have a different rendering engine then? Like for eg XSLT
engine operating on XML for view generation?


If u did participate in the last book promotion, there were a bunch of discussion about JSF and Struts as well as the usage of each of them and how they complement each other... Surely it's more related to view generation... Tapestry is the new framework's components to create rich web-based GUIs using links, images, and HTML forms...

Actually I've never used Tapestry in the real project... I just read about them roughly and try to adopt some good things from it..


Co-author of SCMAD Exam Guide, Author of JMADPlus
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Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

I just read about them roughly and try to adopt some good things from it..


Cool! Could you please list out the things which you felt are great.
Thanks
Ko Ko Naing
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Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Cool! Could you please list out the things which you felt are great.
Thanks [/QB]

The most interesting feature of the coming up Tapestry Version 3 is integrated DatePicker... We do not need to find additional JavaScript calendar from somewhere else to use with our client-side calendar... And one more thing is JChart feature... That might save us a lot of work on dealing with charting diagrams. but I don't know how to apply it yet... I need to study more about it in Tapestry...
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Doesn't JSF have Datepicker? :roll:
Ko Ko Naing
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Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Doesn't JSF have Datepicker? :roll:


Pradeep, I don't think DatePicker is integrated with JSF... It's kinda special convenient feature of Tapestry... Since JSF is kinda of framework probably working together with Struts, it might not concentrate on client-side feature like DatePicker...
Howard Lewis Ship
author
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Joined: May 21, 2004
Posts: 38
JSPs are a templating solution. You feed in a lot of data (as simple strings, or as objects) and the tags inside a JSP can turn that into HTML. In this way, JSPs are not very interesting, in the way that components are interesting.

Tapestry and JSF are component frameworks. These components can do more than just spew out HTML, they can work together to solve problems. Once you stop thinking of webapps as a text processing problem, and start thinking in terms of object, methods and properties (much as you would when developing a desktop app using Swing).

What was identified as a "feature" of Tapestry, the DatePicker, is just a component like any other. Tapestry provides a rich set of resources that components such as DatePicker can use to dynamically assemble the necessary HTML and JavaScript.

I feel that there are a number of features missing from JSF that compromises its ability to create components such as Tapestry's DatePicker. Often, a solution can be cobbled together, but imposes restraints such as: only one form on the page, or only one DatePicker in the form. Tapestry doesn't have those constraints ... use any mix of components in any number of forms across any number of pages and it works (Simplicity, Consistency).

Tapestry is very conservative about adopting new features (of the JDK, or the Servlet API) since we have a large community of users who are deployed into older environments.

JSF is a bit of a tangle; the reference implementation is quite plain. It is expected that more sophisticate components, including their equivalent of a DatePicker, will arrive someday ... but probably in the form of propertiery components available for specific IDEs or specific application servers. So, for all the openness of JSF, the practical emplyment of JSF will be proprietary, more so I think than even EJBs have proven.

JSF is very cool in that it legitimizes the concept of Java web components, but it doesn't provide the best solution. Tapestry does. As people start to use JSF in production, I prediect that we are going to start seeing long rants about its limitations and the heroic efforts necessary to overcome significant gaps in its functionality. Tapestry has already been there, already done that ... and had the freedom of an open source project (not an "open" specification) to address those issues quickly. JSF is heavily encumbered by a process that means any faults identified in 1.0 will take years to become available (first as a new specification, then as a new vendor-specific implementation).


--<br />Howard M. Lewis Ship<br />Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant<br />Creator, Jakarta Tapestry<br />Creator, Jakarta HiveMind<br /><a href="http://howardlewisship.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://howardlewisship.com</a>
Ko Ko Naing
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Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Howard Lewis Shp:
Tapestry and JSF are component frameworks. These components can do more than just spew out HTML, they can work together to solve problems. Once you stop thinking of webapps as a text processing problem, and start thinking in terms of object, methods and properties (much as you would when developing a desktop app using Swing).
........


According to the Mr.Lewis' comparison between JSF and Tapestry, it seems the Tapestry got much more simplicity than JSF... I almost try to learn JSF in details... But Tapestry seems a lot similar to Swing, according to Mr.Lewis' words. I am a die-hard fan of Swing, even though it's not as widely used as J2EE stuff in Java field...

Tapestry would be my alternative to learn about it as kinda Swing in J2EE....
 
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