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Why so many frameworks?

Mcgill Smith
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Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 178
hi


What is the difference between Struts,Spring,JSF and Tapestry .What edge does Tapestry have over the other frameworks?


Thanks!


Regards
Mcgill
Karthik Guru
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Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Is Spring a standalone framework for web applications? Does it have its own MVC framework embedded within it like Struts Or is it configurable? I have come across posts that say that Spring can work with struts. So am sure it can work with Tapestry as well. For JSF and Tapestry, Pradeep has provided lots of links.
Nicholas Cheung
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982
You may refer to this thread:
http://www.coderanch.com/t/62029/open-source/JSPs-tapestry-competing-technologies

Pradeep has provided some links about JSF and Tapestry.

In fact, for these projects, they focus on different areas:
Struts on MVC model
JSF on component model
Tapestry on Session object model
etc

Although they may overlap in some areas, the focus are not the same.

As I talked with Lasse before, he told me that, even the 2 open source projects that work on the same issue, they are different. Because they are using different algorithms/approaches to implement, and see whether they are new things that can be discovered. Thus, there are more and more projects nowadays.

Nick


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Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

While it may be good to have many open source frame work what my concern is selecting the best one for a task.
If there are more than one framework how to select the right one? Also, open framework will mean that Sun spec will no longer be relevent ?

Are all orgainzations open to open-source? Lasse, what is your opinion?


Groovy
Lasse Koskela
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
If there are more than one framework how to select the right one?
By analysing your options and making a decision. It's no different from buying a car in that sense. You have the option to trust others' suggestions ("buy a Ford", "buy a Toyota", "use Struts", "use WebWork", etc.) or make the decision based on your own analysis (reading the car's technical specifications, reading the MVC framework's feature list, taking the car for a test drive, prototyping an MVC framework, etc.).

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Also, open framework will mean that Sun spec will no longer be relevent ?
No, the Sun specifications (JSRs) will not become irrelevant just because someone creates an open source project providing similar (or even clearly better) functionality. Standards will have power in the eyes of businesses for decades to come, I believe.

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Are all orgainzations open to open-source?

Definitely not. I've heard of many big companies having policies along the lines of "no open source" or "every open source project needs to be approved by the legal department (which takes about 5 months and your project will be over by then)"...
[ May 25, 2004: Message edited by: Lasse Koskela ]

Author of Test Driven (2007) and Effective Unit Testing (2013) [Blog] [HowToAskQuestionsOnJavaRanch]
Karthik Guru
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Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
While it may be good to have many open source frame work what my concern is selecting the best one for a task.
If there are more than one framework how to select the right one? Also, open framework will mean that Sun spec will no longer be relevent ?

Are all orgainzations open to open-source? Lasse, what is your opinion?


This c'd be especially true when it comes to frameworks like tapestry or hibernate. Tapestry seems to ignore JSP completely and Hibernate gives a damn about J2ee persistance spec and both of them are quite popular.It might even push Sun towards introducing modifications to its Spec

About organizations being open to open-source, i think most will be ok as long as you can stick to one framework and not employ many. More the frameworks, more issues with integration.

But mine does'nt beleive in allowing too many open source products in key tiers (like presentation tier / persistance).
They think they w'dnt get good support
which in itself might be a wrong assumption.
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

Tapestry seems to ignore JSP completely


The Tapestry home page states it an alternative to JSP scripting.
Karthik Guru
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Joined: Mar 06, 2001
Posts: 1209
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


The Tapestry home page states it an alternative to JSP scripting.


Yeah so guess that means it does'nt care about JSP. Did u mean something else?
Mcgill Smith
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Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 178
These days it seems Velocity is taking over Jsp.
Lasse Koskela
author
Sheriff

Joined: Jan 23, 2002
Posts: 11962
    
    5
Originally posted by Mcgill smith:
These days it seems Velocity is taking over Jsp.

Really? That would be interesting. I would still bet my money on JSF and JSP 2.0 if was into gambling... Velocity is a good template engine, but I don't see it taking over JSP in corporate web development quite yet.
Nicholas Cheung
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 4982

These days it seems Velocity is taking over Jsp.

I guess Velocity can take over JSP 1.2, as Velocity provides a better template management.

However, as the evolution of JSP 2.0, it includes more feautres, like EL, and JSTL, JSP 2.0 seems a bit more easy to use than Velocity.

Nick
Howard Lewis Ship
author
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Joined: May 21, 2004
Posts: 38
Tapestry has some significant edges over the other major frameworks, including JSF.

Tapestry is built upon four principals: Simplicity, Efficiency, Consistency and Feedback.

Simplicity means that doing most tasks is very simple. Want a link to activate some code? Use a DirectLink component and a listener method. Other frameworks make you jump through hoops and make lots of decisions; Tapestry keeps it simple. Tapestry doesn't require anything beyond off-the-shelf HTML editors, and IDEs (preferably with some XML support). Spindle, the Eclipse plugin for Tapestry, isn't a requirement, but is an incredibly valuable tool.

Efficiency: Tapestry uses pooling, caching and buffering to give you all of its features with little or no additional runtime cost.

Consistency: Tapestry applications, small and large, code the same. You never have to change direction because your application has gotten too complex. We think in terms of pages when creating applications, and Tapestry does as well. Other frameworks have a loose connection between "actions" and "templates" that can become overburdended when you create truly complex applications that have similar behavior on many pages. Tapestry's component object model keep this simple and consistent.

Feedback: Most web frameworks expect you to get everything right and then, and only then, do they provide functionality. Tapestry is full of careful error checks and error messages, to provide maximum feedback when things aren't quite right. Further, it encorporates line precise error reporting, which means that errors in your input files (templates, specifications) are identified at runtime. Tapestry literally tells you where to go to make a fix! More details on the Tapestry home page (and, of course, in the book).


--<br />Howard M. Lewis Ship<br />Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant<br />Creator, Jakarta Tapestry<br />Creator, Jakarta HiveMind<br /><a href="http://howardlewisship.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://howardlewisship.com</a>
Ko Ko Naing
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Joined: Jun 08, 2002
Posts: 3178
Originally posted by Howard Lewis Shp:
Tapestry has some significant edges over the other major frameworks, including JSF.

Tapestry is built upon four principals: Simplicity, Efficiency, Consistency and Feedback.

.................


In addition to the facts that Mr.Lewis has just mentioned above, I found out that it's good to read the following link provided by Pradeep in this thread.

The goals of Tapestry described in that link by Rob Smith is pretty related to those described by Mr.Lewis here... So I do believe u guys will get really great knowledge about Tapestry on that page...


Co-author of SCMAD Exam Guide, Author of JMADPlus
SCJP1.2, CCNA, SCWCD1.4, SCBCD1.3, SCMAD1.0, SCJA1.0, SCJP6.0
Pradeep bhatt
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Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

"every open source project needs to be approved by the legal department


I think it is required so that a company does not get caught is unforeseen legal issues. My project is going through the process.
Howard Lewis Ship
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 21, 2004
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


I think it is required so that a company does not get caught is unforeseen legal issues. My project is going through the process.


Another advantage of Jakarta over SourceForge: Jakarta is very careful about contributions and licensing so all (or nearly all) of the legal investigation is already done for you.
Mcgill Smith
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 178
Thanks for the prompt reply Howard. I had just scratched the surface of the Struts Framework when Tapestry surfaced. I am a bit confused although Tapestry seems very interesting of which path to tread on. Your guidance will be much appreciated.



Thanks.
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8919

On a second thought, I feel that Tapestry evolving slowly is a good thing. When EJB came into J2EE, companies started using it without bothering if was really required. EJB 3.0 plans to use a light weight model. So I think Tapestry would have matured enough to be used widely.
Geoff Longman
Greenhorn

Joined: May 25, 2004
Posts: 16
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
On a second thought, I feel that Tapestry evolving slowly is a good thing. When EJB came into J2EE, companies started using it without bothering if was really required. EJB 3.0 plans to use a light weight model. So I think Tapestry would have matured enough to be used widely.


Don't forget that EJB evolution has been primarily vendor, not user driven. That's changing now in EJB 3.0 but the vendors still have more say than end users due to the nature of the JCP.

Tapestry evolution on the other hand has been, and still is, driven by the experiences of the end users. Stuff isn't arbitrarily shoved into Tapestry on a whim.

Examples of Tapestry features added to meet user requests/requirements or solve common problems: implicit components, line precise error reporting, property specifications/enhanced classes.

Everybody asks for enhancements and if they further the goals of Tapestry ( Simplicity, Efficiency, Consistency and Feedback) they usually make it in.

Geoff
[ May 27, 2004: Message edited by: Geoff Longman ]
 
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