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Kyle Brown

Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
HI,
My undertanding of Enterprise programming is "Write-once-delopy-anywhere". Thinking about that I don't see why there is a need to write a book about enterprise programming on only WebSphere.
I am new not enterprise progarmming and have not yet used WebSphere. So there may be something I am missing.
Thanks
Chris.
Anselm Paulinus
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 389
Thanks Chris:
I was just about to ask this same question, however I suppose a book of this nature should highlight the intrinsic things done not just by the Bean producer or programmer but server specific things done by the deployer as well as the server administrator, just my $.02.
Richard Monson-Haefel
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 92
Hopefully Kyle won't mind if I jump in �. Although the programming model used for EJB, Servlets and JSP are standardized, the deployment and administration facilities of every vendor are very different. Just knowing the programming model is only half the battle. The other half is knowledge of a particular platform (e.g. WebSphere, WebLogic, JBoss, etc.). It's kind of like the difference between knowing SQL and an actual RDBM system. It's great to know SQL - that's a requirement - but you can't do much with that knowledge if you don't know how to install, configure and admisiter Oracle, MS SQLServer, MySQL, or DB2.


Books like Kyle's are essential to those people working in J2EE today. You need the kind of expertise that Kyle offers in his book if you want any hope of being successful with J2EE on a project. You must learn the programming models, but you have to master the products too.


-- <br />Richard Monson-Haefel<br /><a href="http://www.Monson-Haefel.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.Monson-Haefel.com</a>
Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
Hi,
I totally agree that there is a need for books that explain how to configure products. With out such books life would be much harder. The power provided by the leading application server means that there can be a lot of configuration. Help of configuration is much appreciated.
However my understanding that the actual code you would develop should not (in theory) be locked into an application server. My confusion comes from the use of the word "programming" in the title.
I not yet found a contents listing for this book, so it may concentrate on the configuration.

Thanks
Chris
Welcome to the javaranch Richard. Hope you are going stay around.
[ January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Chris Harris ]
Anselm Paulinus
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 389
Hi Mr. Monson-Haefel:
Welcome to Javaranch. It is good to have you on board. I hope you stay with us at Javaranch as the pressence of your likes gives me a lot of confidence.
Richard Monson-Haefel
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 92
Programming is not just writing code, not in J2EE. The idea that deployers, programmers and administrators are separate people is a bit of a myth in most projects - they tend to be the same person. So the lines are blurred and usually its the programmers that do all the work and fill all the roles. That's why I don't talk about roles in my book (never have). I don't think they are valid.


This is really Kyle's show so I'll let him address the title of his book, but that's my perspective.
Rufus BugleWeed
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 1551
I have all three editions of EJB, by Monson-Haefel. I sure wish you would jump into this thread, When not to EJB. Last time they had Deepak Alur and the Bitter EJB guy in the fray. It really pumps the adrenaline when the heavy weights weigh in.
[ January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]
Vijay S. Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 449
Hi
Kyle Brown, Gary Craig, Greg Hester, David Pitt, Russell Stinehour, Mark Weitzel, Jim Amsden, Peter Jakab, Peter Jakab, Daniel Berg

My questions related to your book are :
1. What is the case study that you are using in your book?
2. What are the differences that you have in your book as compared to Redbook IBM WebSphere Application Server - Express V5.0.2 Developer Handbook (SG24-6555-01). (Apart from EJBs and development of Webservices).
Can I say that this book is an integrated version of different IBM Redbooks at one place.
Vijay


SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD1.4, IBM486, IBM484, IBM 483, IBM 287, IBM141, IBM Certified Enterprise Developer - WebSphere Studio, V5.0
Author of IBM 287 Simulator Exam
Vijay S. Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 449
Welcome Richard Monson-Haefel,
Fortunately I also have all three editions of your EJB book. And I was able to download all chapters of your fourth edition book from www.theserverside.com.
(It seems now the link is not working).
Vijay
Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
Hi,
The idea that deployers, programmers and administrators are separate people is a bit of a myth in most projects - they tend to be the same person
.
As I said earlier I am a new bee EJB developer. However I have some JSP and Servlet experiance. Are you saying that the roles that sun like to talk about i.e Bean Developer and Application Developer etc. Do not really happen in the real world.
When I frist read about the role of a bean developer, the whole debate of the silver bullet came back to me. I know this is a little off the book, but are there really companys out there that ONLY sell beans? In order for such a thing to happen I would have thought the whole industry would have had to have changed more than it already has. I can know that the industary is happy to use open source components but I just don't know if people will actually pay for beans. However i may be wrong.
Thanks Chris
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Gee, I jump on a thread with my own name, and find out that one of the people that I respect the most in the J2EE community is defending me -- what more can a guy ask to make his day?!?
Thanks Richard -- and yes, Richard has hit the nail on the head. The idea of write-once, deploy many is a pipe dream. The fact is that each of the vendors have very different configuratoin options and deployment options that make books on the vendor specifics necessary. That's why I wrote a copmanion book to Richard's second edition of Enterprise JavaBeans, and it's why I've written two editions of my new book.
Moving from one application server to another isn't usually just a redeploy -- it's often a port. The capabilities differ from each other in situations like how HttpSessions are clustered, how Web Services are deployed, how CMP mapping works to relational databases, and a multitude of other points. That's why I wrote this book.
Now, it covers things from a PROGRAMMING angle (while relying on books like Richard's EJB book and his JMS book) by showing both how to do development for the APIs using IBM's tools (WebSphere Studio) and where the "edges" of the application server programming models lie.
Kyle


Kyle Brown, Author of Persistence in the Enterprise and Enterprise Java Programming with IBM Websphere, 2nd Edition
See my homepage at http://www.kyle-brown.com/ for other WebSphere information.
Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
Hi,
The idea of write-once, deploy many is a pipe dream.

This is to me. I saw this idea as one of the main advantages of EJBs.
How much of a dream is this?
Java is only paltform independent if you avoid some methods. Excluding configuration, I would like to hope that EJB development could redepoly on any application server if designed and coded in the right way. Am i right?
Thank
Chris.
Gary Craig
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 16
Write-once deploy anywhere -- up to a point!
Enterprise applications demand high QoS, including scalability, transaction throughput, maintainability, ...
Part of this depends on effective use of best practice patterns within your application design (a heavy focus within this book) while part is also exploiting the underlying application server runtime (mostly through deployment configuration).
My take on the "WebSphere" focus of the book is "to truely understand the impact of your application design, and be productive in solving your business problem -- it helps to have a particular point of reference". Here the reference is first, using IBM Application development tools (WebSphere Studio); second is operational considerations associated with deploying to the market leading WebSphere Application Server.
Cheers.


Gary Craig,<br />Author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/032118579X/qid=1060361076/sr=1-11/ref=sr_1_11/102-0063041-4226517?v=glance&s=books" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Enterprise Java (tm) Programming with IBM Websphere, 2nd edition</a><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931182116/qid=1060361262/sr=1-30/ref=sr_1_30/102-0063041-4226517?v=glance&s=books" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Introduction to Web Application Development with IBM Websphere Studio (Certification Guide, Test 285)</a>
Howard Kushner
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 361
Howdy y'all!
So (IMNSHO) W.O.R.A.(tm) is the Java(tm) mantra. Enterprise computing the WebSphere way is a different kettle of fish. Thanks Richard, Kyle and Gary for your comments.
I've seen some enterprise applications done poorly, and done remarkably well and some that are somewhere in between. As Gary so correctly points out its the -ilities that either make or break your architecture.
So what's our goal in write once deploy anywhere? We're still talking about the -ilities. Since Chris is asking about EJB's lets think about the development of distributed standard software components. Cool. We've got IBM WebSphere Studio. Possiblities for reuse abound. Now, let's deploy them into an industrial strength production run time like IBM WebSphere Application Server. It just keeps getting better.
Okay. Now lets switch horses. The boss likes BEA/Weblogic. Is that a problem? Probably not. You pays a quarter and you takes a shot. Might be a bit more work (lacking the tight tool-to-tool integration) but doable nonetheless. I hope my musings have not strayed to far afield.


Howard Kushner<br />IBM Certified Enterprise Developer - WebSphere Studio Application Developer V5.0<br />IBM Certified Advanced System Administrator - WebSphere Application Server V5.0<br />IBM Certified Solution Developer - Web Services with WebSphere Studio V5.1<br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931182108/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Developing J2EE Applications with WebSphere Studio</a> my Certification Study Guide for IBM Test 287
Serge Adzinets
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 166
AFAIK, J2EE 1.4 introduces the standard API for deployment of J2EE applications.
My 2c.
[ January 21, 2004: Message edited by: Serge Adzinets ]

Best Regards,<br />Serge
Vijay S. Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 449
Even though the book is related to IBM� WebSphere.
Just for curiosity sake, what are the vesrions of Servlet, JSP and EJB are covered in the book?
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
The levels covered (as listed in Chapter 3) are:
EJB (Enterprise Java Beans) 2.0
Servlet API 2.3
JSP (JavaServer Pages) 1.3
JMS (Java Message Service) 1.0
Kyle
Vijay S. Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 449
Hi
Kyle Brown,
It seems you missed my previous question in this thread only. I am mentioning it again:

My questions related to your book are :
1. What is the case study that you are using in your book?
2. What are the differences that you have in your book as compared to Redbook IBM WebSphere Application Server - Express V5.0.2 Developer Handbook (SG24-6555-01). (Apart from EJBs and development of Webservices).
Can I say that this book is an integrated version of different IBM Redbooks at one place.
Vijay
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

Kyle,
Why so many authors for the book?


Groovy
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Kyle,
Why so many authors for the book?

Have you ever tried to write 1000 pages by yourself!?
Kyle
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Vijay S Rathore:
Hi
Kyle Brown,
It seems you missed my previous question in this thread only. I am mentioning it again:

My questions related to your book are :
1. What is the case study that you are using in your book?
2. What are the differences that you have in your book as compared to Redbook IBM WebSphere Application Server - Express V5.0.2 Developer Handbook (SG24-6555-01). (Apart from EJBs and development of Webservices).
Can I say that this book is an integrated version of different IBM Redbooks at one place.
Vijay


We use the same case study we used in the first edition, which is an employee management and time recording application.
I honestly haven't had the time to sit down and read through all the redbooks to do a detailed comparision.
Kyle
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

Originally posted by Kyle Brown:

Have you ever tried to write 1000 pages by yourself!?
Kyle

How is your book different from IBM tutorials and docs? :roll:
Scott Duncan
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 01, 2002
Posts: 363
The idea of write-once, deploy many is a pipe dream. The fact is that each of the vendors have very different configuratoin options and deployment options that make books on the vendor specifics necessary.

This seems to be a big problem with Java in general. Standardization is the key to dominance. We need (to quote from the JDJ) one IDE to rule them all and one platform to deploy on. This would allow Java developers to concentrate on the guts of the language and the business processes at hand as opposed to dedicating so much time to environmental considerations.


No more rhymes! I mean it!<br /> <br />Does anybody want a peanut?
Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
Hi,
Why so many authors for the book?

Have you ever tried to write 1000 pages by yourself!?
Kyle

Just out of curiosity, did you all know each other before you started working on the book? Or where you put together by the publisher?
Chris
Vijay S. Rathore
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Posts: 449
Hi Kyle,
One more question.
Does this book throws some light on setting up the Test Environments for Tomcat or other servers?
Vijay
Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
Talking about testing.
Does this book, mention how to write unit test for enterprise application.
Chris.
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Chris Harris:
Hi,

Just out of curiosity, did you all know each other before you started working on the book? Or where you put together by the publisher?
Chris

Oh, yes, I knew all of the authors prior to this book. This is a group that come together of our own accord -- we weren't thrown together willy-nilly by an "editor" who joined them together like happens at SOME book publishers I know. We planned this one and executed it ourselves.
Kyle
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Vijay S Rathore:
Hi Kyle,
One more question.
Does this book throws some light on setting up the Test Environments for Tomcat or other servers?
Vijay

No. We cover the WTE Exclusively.
Kyle
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Chris Harris:
Talking about testing.
Does this book, mention how to write unit test for enterprise application.
Chris.

Absolutely! We cover JUnit, Cactus and HttpUnit, and provide several examples of Tests for EJB's and Servlets/JSPs.
Kyle
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

Hello Kyle
May I know what motivated you write the book?
Thanks
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

Although the programming model used for EJB, Servlets and JSP are standardized, the deployment and administration facilities of every vendor are very different.

Is there any plan to standardize the deployment?
Serge Adzinets
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 166
It's not the plan, Pradeep, it's almost the reality
Please refer to chapter 8 of J2EE 1.4 spec. It's all about deployment. Waiting for containers to support this.
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Serge Adzinets:
It's not the plan, Pradeep, it's almost the reality
Please refer to chapter 8 of J2EE 1.4 spec. It's all about deployment. Waiting for containers to support this.

Humbug. WebSphere ALREADY supports this. Chapter 8 just refers to the steps a deployment tool must take. It says nothing about user interfaces, or programmatic interfaces, or any of the other parts that distinguish the current crop of deployment tools.
Kyle
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Hello Kyle
May I know what motivated you write the book?
Thanks

I often say that the writing is like the man who, when seen hitting his head with a hammer, was asked why he did that... "Because it feels so good whan I stop!"
Seriously, though. I'm a consultant. I answer customer questions about WebSphere every day. It's SOOOO much easier to say "Look in Chapter X of my book" than to repeat the same answer day, after day, after day.
Kyle
faiza athar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 136
To what detail is Web Services discussed in your book?
For a person trying to get good working knowledge of WS using ibm's application developer v5.1, do you think your book is a good buy. I couldnt find the content page of the book...so if you could tell to what depth you have discussed WS's.
Thanx
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
Originally posted by faiza athar:
To what detail is Web Services discussed in your book?
For a person trying to get good working knowledge of WS using ibm's application developer v5.1, do you think your book is a good buy. I couldnt find the content page of the book...so if you could tell to what depth you have discussed WS's.
Thanx

We discuss Web Services in some fair detail, but not as much as you'd get in a book entirely on the topic. We cover creating Web Services with WSAD (and that includes WSAD 5.1!) as well as what web services are, how they are used, and best practices in constructing your web services. We don't cover all advanced topics (like JAX-RPC handlers) but would instead refer you to something like Richard Monson-Haefel's new book for a description of that.
Kyle
Pradeep bhatt
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 27, 2002
Posts: 8898

Kyle,
May I know which chapter were written by you ? Or is that a chapter is written by several authors?
Kyle Brown
author
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 10, 2001
Posts: 3879
It's not that simple. This isn't a Wrox book where each author did a chapter and that's it. We all had a hand in each of the chapters. We did have primary responsibility for certain chapters -- for instance, Dan Berg did most of the CMP Mapping Chapters (which makes sense since he's the CMP Mapping tools lead for the WSAD group) and I had primary responsibility for the Chapters on WebSphere architecture, J2EE Security, Transactions, and a number of other topics. However, I contributed to Dan's chapters, Mark Weitzel and I co-authored several chapters, Gary Craig and I split a chapter, etc... It truly was a group effort. Even after the original chapter manuscripts were completed, every author edited every chapter so that we could be assured of technical accuracy and a common voice.
Kyle
[ January 23, 2004: Message edited by: Kyle Brown ]
Chris Harris
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 21, 2003
Posts: 231
I have just read
AVK.
Is this mentioned in your book?
Sorry to bring this issue back up but can AVK realy help with WORA? It should possible but then again is could be just a marketing exercise.
Chris
Melody Siu
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 06, 2003
Posts: 21
To what extend does this book cover in JTA - XA on SQL server and embedded MQ (JMS) in WSAD 5.1?
Wendy
 
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