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This weeks giveaway

Carl Trusiak
Sheriff

Joined: Jun 13, 2000
Posts: 3340
This week we are giving away four copies the Book "Professional Apache Tomcat".
And the best part... the Author, Vivek Chopra, will be online to answer your questions!
Thanks to the people at Wrox for the Books!
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Welcome Vivek Chopra!..
Hope you will have nice time with us.
Regards
Balaji
Siva Ram
Ranch Hand

Joined: Apr 04, 2002
Posts: 66
Hi,
What are the topics covered in this book ??
Is it deals with the latest version of tomcat 4.1.12 Stable & 4.0.5 ???
Have u kept any sample topics for ref.
Regards,
Siva Ram
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Welcome Vivek Chopra,
do you (or anyone else) have any information about how much tomcats run in production environments, best with distribution by countries/regions.
Thanks
Axel
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Table of content can be found here,a reviewer says this book covers tomcat 4.1.x
Balaji Loganathan
author and deputy
Bartender

Joined: Jul 13, 2001
Posts: 3150
Not a direct reply,but u check what a site is running using this site http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?mode_u=on&mode_w=on&site=www.javaranch.com for example our javaranch is running Orion on Linux, only Paul know the truth
Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Welcome Vivek Chopra,
do you (or anyone else) have any information about how much tomcats run in production environments, best with distribution by countries/regions.
Thanks
Axel
Cathy Gorchkova
Greenhorn

Joined: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 8
Hi,
So, this book is about server administration and not development, right?
Rugby Geek
Greenhorn

Joined: Apr 23, 2002
Posts: 2
I too would enjoy this book
Calvin Robol
Greenhorn

Joined: Feb 01, 2002
Posts: 3
Does anyone know if this book covers SSL configuration with tomcat?
chanoch wiggers
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2001
Posts: 245
yes the book is primarily about administration - we didnt see any point in repeating work that had been done in other books and hide another servlets book under the Tomcat title.


chanoch<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861007736/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Author of Professional Apache Tomcat</a></p>
chanoch wiggers
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2001
Posts: 245
Originally posted by Calvin Robol:
Does anyone know if this book covers SSL configuration with tomcat?

yes it does, theres a fair amount on security actually including SSL, generating (or getting a hold of certificates, etc)
Doug Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2001
Posts: 445
Welcome Vivek and chanoch!
Delighted to see another Apache/Tomcat book on the market. And the best part, the book is written by Wrox' experts.
[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Doug Wang ]

Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep
chanoch wiggers
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2001
Posts: 245
Originally posted by Siva Ram:
Hi,
Is it deals with the latest version of tomcat 4.1.12 Stable & 4.0.5 ???

the book mainly concentrates on 4.0 since that aws stable and out at the time and 4.1 was still in beta. Although there are many good things about .1, many companies would not trust it because it hasnt been out long enough for them so it seemed to be right to be more focussed - the 3.x lines we almost entirely ignored because trying to cover both would have made for a very large book, 50% of which would be useless to most people because the two generations are so different and most people deal with only one.
Doug Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2001
Posts: 445
Hi chanoch,
I am a Tomcat lover. But I wonder how it can be compared with other commercial web containers?
Thanks.
chanoch wiggers
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2001
Posts: 245
well, it very often gets compared with some of the biggies - websphere and weblogic - which is a bit of a mistake. Those have great enterprize facilities and extensions and also are much bigger in scope providing web services and EJB container capabilities.
If you compare it to JRun then personally I think its a lot less buggy but it also requires a much better understanding of the server than Tomcat now requires. I understand that in 4.1 this has been resolved through a comprehensive web manager like jrun has. On the other hand, I have people complaining about how hard it is to set up tomcat (cant see the problem myself) so need to check out both sides.
Something that can be incredibly useful is that JRun provides extensions to the JSP and Tag specifications that get around some issues people often face but it does mean that you tie yourself into that server. Some of these extra features are being incorporated into the next editions of JSP et al but will undoubtedly change in the spec process.
Throughput on the Tomcat I have found pretty good but when for some reason I get better throughput when apache is in front then IIS.
What else - I rarely have to really stretch Tomcat anymore since I understand what I have to and dont have unreasonable demands to make of it.
Personally (and all of the above is tinted with my personal points of view) I find it excellent for web development but would probably go to weblogic for enterprise level apps.
ruilin yang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 25, 2001
Posts: 334
Does your book cover Apache/Tomcat on LINUX ?
Doug Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2001
Posts: 445
Hi ruilin,
Personally I think most Apache/Tomcat run on Linux.
ruilin yang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 25, 2001
Posts: 334
Doug,
Yes you are right ! Does the book covers the specifics Apache/Tomcat on LINUX, such as set-up, app development etc.
chanoch wiggers
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2001
Posts: 245
app dev on tomcat/apache is not covered. No app dev is in this book. But I put together setup instructions for getting them to work on Redhat (works the same on Suse for me) and its quite easy. I also put together some basic instructions for tying the installation down to make it a little more secure and there is a whole chapter dedicated to it later too
Roger Gazdzicki
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 04, 2002
Posts: 47
I would like a copy too. I am new at this and trying to decide which is the best tools.
Too many to try.


Roger G<br /> <br />Anybody who tries to make anything idiot proof has obviously underestimated the intelligence of an idiot.
Andrew Babaian
Greenhorn

Joined: May 16, 2002
Posts: 25
I'm a novice to Tomcat and could benefit from this book. I hoping this could help me config the root folders and any others I set up.
Andrew
Bruce Jin
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 671
Just checked this site - webhelp.com. They serve 10 millions request a day using Tomcat!
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?mode_u=off&mode_w=on&site=www.webhelp.com


BJ - SCJP and SCWCD
We love Java programming. It is contagious, very cool, and lot of fun. - Peter Coad, Java Design

Crazy Bikes created by m-Power
Ryan Bailey
Ranch Hand

Joined: Feb 26, 2002
Posts: 134
Hi Vivek and Welcome,
From the title of this book I assume Apache is Integrated with Tomcat? Does this book cover what versions to use as well as how to integrate the two? This is something I know a lot of people have tried to do (including myself ) for efficiency reasons.
Thanks for your time,
Ryan


SCJP 1.4, SCWCD
Java: The power, elegance, and simplicity of a hand grenade
Gary Rather
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 12, 2002
Posts: 8
What would be needed for me to look for in a book.
The same info that can be found in the tomcat docs , but a bit of spoon feeding to me.
When I first started using JSERV , then Tomcat many moons ago the most confusing is the first time geting it up and running.
As a beginner with the server I would love to have
a set up given to me to get my servlet running.
Just take me through the steps, deployment directory structure.
where do I put my HelloWorld.class
What do I set to get it to work in a standalone tomcat
How do I get it to work with apache.
=====================
Then as I get my app running need more intimate knowledge memory usuage setting, what and how do I know what my app or apps is using, what to set .
======================
All this available in the Tomcat docs for sure but it is hard to find. If the book had a good index and examples it is well worth the money
Vivek Chopra
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 18, 2000
Posts: 14
Hello Siva,
You can find the topic list at the Wrox web site (http://www.wrox.com/books/1861007736.htm). The book covers versions 3.x, 4.0.x and 4.1.x. It is targetted towards Tomcat administrators, and people interested in its installation and configuration. There are a lot of books in the market that focus on java/servlet programming and web applications, and very few on Tomcat's configuration details. Hopefully, our book can help fill that gap.
- Vivek
Originally posted by Siva Ram:
Hi,
What are the topics covered in this book ??
Is it deals with the latest version of tomcat 4.1.12 Stable & 4.0.5 ???
Have u kept any sample topics for ref.
Regards,
Siva Ram


Vivek Chopra<br />Author of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471753610/soapsimpleobject/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Professional Apache Tomcat 6</a>
Vivek Chopra
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 18, 2000
Posts: 14
Hello Carl,
Thanks for the opportunity.
Chanoch Wiggers, who is a co-author of this book seems to be around answering questions too. Hello Chanoch!
- Vivek
Originally posted by Carl Trusiak:
This week we are giving away four copies the Book "Professional Apache Tomcat".
And the best part... the Author, Vivek Chopra, will be online to answer your questions!
Thanks to the people at Wrox for the Books!
Vivek Chopra
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 18, 2000
Posts: 14
I would like to add to Chanoch's comments. Yes, we have concentrated on Tomcat 4.0. However, you would also find a fair amount of coverage on 4.1- especially in the chapter dealing with Manager configuration (Tomcat 4.1.x has a new UI for this) and in the chapter(s) dealing with the HTTP Connectors.
- Vivek
Originally posted by chanoch wiggers:

the book mainly concentrates on 4.0 since that aws stable and out at the time and 4.1 was still in beta. Although there are many good things about .1, many companies would not trust it because it hasnt been out long enough for them so it seemed to be right to be more focussed - the 3.x lines we almost entirely ignored because trying to cover both would have made for a very large book, 50% of which would be useless to most people because the two generations are so different and most people deal with only one.

[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Vivek Chopra ]
Vivek Chopra
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 18, 2000
Posts: 14
Hello Ryan,
The books covers Tomcat connectors extensively.
Tomcat's Connectors are like rabbits- there are so many of them, and they keep on multiplying :-) We have five chapters dealing with connectors- both the HTTP Connectors (HTTP/1.0, 1.1, Coyote HTTP) as well as the Web Server Connectors (mod_jk, mod_jk2, mod_webapp). Apache integrated with Tomcat is a fairly popular combination. We do cover this, as well as look at the other Web servers (e.g. IIS).
The 'Apache' in the title is a reference to Apache project, not the Apache HTTP server+Tomcat combination.
- Vivek
Originally posted by Ryan Bailey:
Hi Vivek and Welcome,
From the title of this book I assume Apache is Integrated with Tomcat? Does this book cover what versions to use as well as how to integrate the two? This is something I know a lot of people have tried to do (including myself ) for efficiency reasons.
Thanks for your time,
Ryan
Vivek Chopra
Author
Greenhorn

Joined: Sep 18, 2000
Posts: 14
Gary,
If you are looking for a short tutorial on deploying a servlet/web application, I can point you to the application developer's tutorial on the Tomcat web site (http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.1-doc/appdev/index.html). For a more detail treatment, such as tuning the configuration for performance etc., buy the book!
- Vivek
Originally posted by Gary Rather:
What would be needed for me to look for in a book.
The same info that can be found in the tomcat docs , but a bit of spoon feeding to me.
When I first started using JSERV , then Tomcat many moons ago the most confusing is the first time geting it up and running.
As a beginner with the server I would love to have
a set up given to me to get my servlet running.
Just take me through the steps, deployment directory structure.
where do I put my HelloWorld.class
What do I set to get it to work in a standalone tomcat
How do I get it to work with apache.
=====================
Then as I get my app running need more intimate knowledge memory usuage setting, what and how do I know what my app or apps is using, what to set .
======================
All this available in the Tomcat docs for sure but it is hard to find. If the book had a good index and examples it is well worth the money
chanoch wiggers
Author
Ranch Hand

Joined: May 24, 2001
Posts: 245
I started off writing about how its a bit of a step to get started with java for web development - because initially you dont even know where to start learning about it all and there is so much to learn but <word-removed/>, since T4 and onwards, all of the Tomcat versions have made a lot of progress towards getting a very easy out of the box running server.
If you are on windows where your average user tends to know a lot less about the internals of the system then the executable installer is perfect and you dont even need to set anything up much anymore - i did the installation chapter and <word-removed/> installing a basic Tomcat instance that you can start working with is <word-removed/> very easy now.
and JSP, is <word-removed/> <word-removed/> very easy to get started with. If you do want a more professional application then its a lot more involved but initially theres not much to it <word-removed/>.
In the book we tried to get a good balance between making it for professionals (check out the title) and covering as much ground as a professional would need to know but keeping it simple so that people wanting to become professionals would benefit from it and I think we've managed it ok - it would be interesting to hear peoples reactions to it.
sorry, had to give some of the actually's and really's back - using more than my fair share amd leaving none for others
(some faces for my wife)
[ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: chanoch wiggers ]
Pho Tek
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 05, 2000
Posts: 761

Don't get me wrong, I've used Tomcat since the 3.0 days mainly as an affordable servlet/jsp container. It's good on two counts:
  • Right price
  • Up to date with respects to the spec conformance

  • However, performance of Tomcat is questionable.
    See discussion
    Why Jasper Suck
    So I find it pointless that people would spend their time tuning Tomcat - when it will ultimately be deployed on a more robust and performant container e.g. Orion, Jetty
    Pho
    [ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pho Tek ]
    [ October 29, 2002: Message edited by: Pho Tek ]

    Regards,

    Pho
    Doug Wang
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 05, 2001
    Posts: 445
    Thanks chanoch for the informative reply. It really helps me a lot, esp. the comparations between Tomcat and JRun server.
    Yes. The extensions to the JSP and Tag lib makes JRun incredibly useful. As for Tomcat, since version 4, I think it is much easier to set up(maybe JRun is a little tougher than Tomcat). The only drawback is its qustionable performance.
    Chanoch said that Tomcat was excellent for web development but not for enterprise level apps. If the latter is my case, what open source app server should I use along with Apache/Tomcat? Thanks.
    Originally posted by chanoch wiggers:
    well, it very often gets compared with some of the biggies - websphere and weblogic - which is a bit of a mistake. Those have great enterprize facilities and extensions and also are much bigger in scope providing web services and EJB container capabilities.
    If you compare it to JRun then personally I think its a lot less buggy but it also requires a much better understanding of the server than Tomcat now requires. I understand that in 4.1 this has been resolved through a comprehensive web manager like jrun has. On the other hand, I have people complaining about how hard it is to set up tomcat (cant see the problem myself) so need to check out both sides.
    Something that can be incredibly useful is that JRun provides extensions to the JSP and Tag specifications that get around some issues people often face but it does mean that you tie yourself into that server. Some of these extra features are being incorporated into the next editions of JSP et al but will undoubtedly change in the spec process.
    Throughput on the Tomcat I have found pretty good but when for some reason I get better throughput when apache is in front then IIS.
    What else - I rarely have to really stretch Tomcat anymore since I understand what I have to and dont have unreasonable demands to make of it.
    Personally (and all of the above is tinted with my personal points of view) I find it excellent for web development but would probably go to weblogic for enterprise level apps.
    chanoch wiggers
    Author
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 24, 2001
    Posts: 245
    here is where i change from offering advice to just offering information - there's JBoss and it incorporates Tomcat and there's Orion
    On the other hand, remember that just because you can have EJB support doesnt mean you should implement your app in EJBs. EJBs are hard to get right and there is a fair amount of bad info on them - dont get me wrong, they can be v useful but there are many examples of the developer getting it wrong.
    When I am talking about enterprise functionality, I mean solid transactions, security, failover, clustering (when appropriate), professional manager configuration, etc that Tomcat doesnt really offer yet for very large applications.
    chanoch wiggers
    Author
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: May 24, 2001
    Posts: 245
    Originally posted by Pho Tek:
    Don't get me wrong, I've used Tomcat since the 3.0 days mainly as an affordable servlet/jsp container. It's good on two counts:
  • Right price
  • Up to date with respects to the spec conformance

  • However, performance of Tomcat is questionable.
    See discussion
    Why Jasper Suck
    So I find it pointless that people would spend their time tuning Tomcat - when it will ultimately be deployed on a more robust and performant container e.g. Orion, Jetty

    This comment is particularly misleading - have a read of the discussion, they are very interesting and should give you a much more balanced view of the issue - its certainly not a clear cut as the comment makes out. On the other hand, it is clear that Orion and Resin perform better even when you adjust for enthusiasm from loyal users of the two. I think that this is clear but...
    You are still talking like you can apply these criteria to every job when in all honesty you usually have to evaluate the tool for each job seperately. Does performance matter for a 300/day - 3000/day hit site? depends on distribution, cost of the site, depends on existing knowledge of the products in the company, depends on likelihood of scaling being required, and so on. In real projects there are more requirements that should be evaluated. In addition, I usually make a decision but always keep an alternate in mind - you never know what problems you might encounter along the way that may make transferring to an alternate preferable to making the current setup work
    THe most important info I've evern learned on testing is - benchmarks on worthless as absolute data, they can only ever be indicators. If performance is an issue test your specific application on various server because what you app requires will vary from project to project. Some hit the database a lot - you can often help this situation by locating the server closer to the db or even connecting them up with their own network. maybe your does a lot of processing in memory - you might need to cache results. Perhaps your app returns a huge number of hits in spikes during the day - this might mean regularly dynamically generating (dynamically updating) a static web site to reduce the load. etc etc.
    One thing that I would recommend is that people test their apps on more than one container (but with an open mind should making it work on all of them be costly and therefore detracting from the project)
    For example one problem reported with Tomcat - badly formed 'XML' in JSPs, that is unclosed or overlapping tags - is something that I've experienced in JRun but not in Tomcat so I'm confused about why this point was made. When developing on JRun our initial choice, it silently ignored many of these problems so when we tested it on Tomcat the app fell over requiring annoying rework.
    If you dont, you reduce the likelihood of being able to easily reuse the code, move between servers (for whatever reason) and you can miss compliance issues that could rear their head later when these bugs have been tightened up therefore making requirements for maintenance
    So what do I recommend?
    I certainly have been meaning to learn Orion and Resin. My primary recommendation is that if at all affordable and feasable - learn several servers well and several more at skin level so that you have many options and have more tools in your belt so that you are able to use the best tool for the job in hand
    And if you are learning all this from scratch - just choose any server with a good support system like forums and docs and make a start.
    And dont fall for political decision making - make your decision in an informed way, listen to all the points of view, and if you are still unsure, then just choose one and learn it well
    and one other thing - dont be scared of learning new technologies - for example there's also ASP, PHP, other CGI (a bit wary about recommening this any more but there are good reasons to use it even now), cold fusion, just to name a few biggies. These all have their good points.
    -----------------------------
    here's some more 'informed' points of view
    Tomcat is dead
    i spent eight hours trying to install tomcat when I could have been playing games

    a very common complaint is the lack of documentation but let me say now there are several books on the matter and most of what I learned of Tomcat was from Docs, the source, and dev list archives - so perhaps Tomcat is not suitable for a certain type of approach - the person who wants to use it without understanding how it works.
    [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: chanoch wiggers ]
    Roger Gazdzicki
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Oct 04, 2002
    Posts: 47
    Will this book teach an idiot like me or is there some expected expertice needed?
    Bruce Jin
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Sep 20, 2001
    Posts: 671
    webhelp.com uses Tomcat. They claim they have more than 10 millions hits per day!
    Dave Matthews
    Greenhorn

    Joined: Jun 11, 2002
    Posts: 15
    At the moment we are using Tomcat, is it worth switching over to Resin?
    Kyle Willkomm
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Sep 10, 2001
    Posts: 44
    Something I don't see in the index of the book is Tomcat instance clustering. Is it covered? We are running clustered Tomcat instances in production but have done the configuration using 3rd party instructions and a "loadbalancer" class. We would like to fully understand how Tomcat gets clustered and who is doing the balancing. What is means to run multiple JVM's at high volumes on the same platform. How far can it scale on one box? ect... Right now we do not see any scalability improvement from loadbalancing accross a 4th Tomcat instance despite having plenty of OS resources left, CPU, Memory, Bandwith, ect...
    Balaji Loganathan
    author and deputy
    Bartender

    Joined: Jul 13, 2001
    Posts: 3150
    Originally posted by Kyle Willkomm:
    Something I don't see in the index of the book is Tomcat instance clustering. Is it covered? We are running clustered Tomcat instances in production but have done the configuration using 3rd party instructions and a "loadbalancer" class. ...resources left, CPU, Memory, Bandwith, ect...

    May i know what instructions you followed and loadbalance you used.
    Kyle Willkomm
    Ranch Hand

    Joined: Sep 10, 2001
    Posts: 44
    We use a third party Tomcat install as well by a company called Covalent. I'm not sure if this loab balancing code was written by them or the Tomcat project. I believe it was written by the Tomcat project as part of 4.1. I can e-mail you the instructions but they are too long to post here. I'm not sure if they would work with a regular 4.1 Tomcat or not since I don't know if the load balacing comes with that download or is some thing the Covalent company created and shipped with their version of Apache and Tomcat.
     
     
    subject: This weeks giveaway