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Organizational Principles at what level?

Paul Roubekas
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 24
I had a software project fail politically, because it worked technically -- it stopped local managers from anonymously �fixing� hours an employee worked. And the local manager�s bonus was tied to the hours booked/billed. Do you get to this level in your book? Or do you stay at the I.T. department level.
Tiger Scott
Ranch Hand

Joined: Mar 01, 2001
Posts: 223
Well this is business reqmnt issue. Local mgmt. may want to do things one way but the higher mgmt. may want to do another. Higher mgmt. are the bosses and they set the corporate policy. I would opinion that IT stay out of this mess and the mgmt. reslove the issue of what the app should do.
HTH
Guillaume Compagnon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 09, 2001
Posts: 106
I guess what you (or your managers) need is not a IT book like "Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns".
I hope this book is not a "How to manage a project with words & smiles" book ...
Guillaume
I don't like politic in IT project ... it is always amongst main risks of failure.


---------<BR>Guillaume
Axel Janssen
Ranch Hand

Joined: Jan 08, 2001
Posts: 2164
Originally posted by Paul Roubekas:
Do you get to this level in your book? Or do you stay at the I.T. department level.

I don't know which book you are talking about, but if it is a technical book it naybe don't adress your level of problems (I don't like the word level in this context).
If you are looking for this sort of problems... Hey there is a whole world of public choice theory in Economics.
The books that I read are allways focussed on something OR to give a polemic answer: Perhaps Taliban think that Koran explains everything.
Axel
quite a mediocre programmer
Paul Roubekas
Greenhorn

Joined: Jul 17, 2001
Posts: 24
The book I am talking about is the 'Book Giveaway' for this week at Java Ranch. 'Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns' by David M. Dikel, David Kane, James R. Wilson.
As for the use of word level, think of its use this way... Does the book's use of the term 'Organizational' limit itself to the I.T. department in an Organization or is it the scope the 'Organization', as a whole.

[This message has been edited by Paul Roubekas (edited November 13, 2001).]
David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
Paul,
We cover a variety of levels. While we do address issues at the executive level, because there are important issues for architecture there. However, we also address issues at a local management level.
Your comment reminds me of a story that didn't make its way into the book. A prototype was built for a customer who wanted a proof-of-concept. It involved 3D processing, but a very bright engineer was able to make it work, and the demo went great. The engineer left the organization, and there were some issues that needed to get resolved in the code. So another engineer was brought on to fix the code. He must of spent a week looking at the code, and finally fixed the problem. The engineer's manager asked him what he did to fix the problem, and the engineer described the 10 lines of code or so that were changed. The manager was very upset with the engineer. "Only tens lines of code changed in a week!" The manager was upset at how that would effect the group's "productivity" metric.
Dave
Originally posted by Paul Roubekas:
I had a software project fail politically, because it worked technically -- it stopped local managers from anonymously �fixing� hours an employee worked. And the local manager�s bonus was tied to the hours booked/billed. Do you get to this level in your book? Or do you stay at the I.T. department level.


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com


David Kane<BR> <A HREF="mailto:david_kane@houseofyin.com" rel="nofollow">david_kane@houseofyin.com</A> <BR>Author of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130290327/ref=ase_electricporkchop/103-0514572-3811868" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.vraps.com" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">http://www.vraps.com</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.houseofyin.com" TARGET=_blank rel="nofollow">http://www.houseofyin.com</A>
Guillaume Compagnon
Ranch Hand

Joined: Aug 09, 2001
Posts: 106
Superb!
I keep this in the pocket, for the time a manager 'd annoy me

Originally posted by David Kane:
"Only tens lines of code changed in a week!" The manager was upset at how that would effect the group's "productivity" metric.
Dave


David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
When you see things like this at the local level, it may be because of expectations that have been established at the executive level. Sometimes there are unintended consequences.
Dave
Originally posted by Sanjay Bahal:
Well this is business reqmnt issue. Local mgmt. may want to do things one way but the higher mgmt. may want to do another. Higher mgmt. are the bosses and they set the corporate policy. I would opinion that IT stay out of this mess and the mgmt. reslove the issue of what the app should do.
HTH


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
An organization, in the context of the book, can be a development team, a division, even an entire company. We also look at relationships between organizations.
Dave
Originally posted by Paul Roubekas:
The book I am talking about is the 'Book Giveaway' for this week at Java Ranch. [b]'Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns' by David M. Dikel, David Kane, James R. Wilson.
As for the use of word level, think of its use this way... Does the book's use of the term 'Organizational' limit itself to the I.T. department in an Organization or is it the scope the 'Organization', as a whole.
[This message has been edited by Paul Roubekas (edited November 13, 2001).][/B]


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
BILAL HAMEED
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 53
Dave so you are saying that your book also look into organizational level details of the architecture as well. so you want to say that your book covers every thing from management to technical details.
personally what i have got out of this is that since its covering a huge area of subject matter therefore it would be a very generic book and will not drill into technical details.thats what my experience is because i have found a very few books taht really covers all the subject matter and covers them well too.but then those books become classics like the work on algoritms by D,E KNUTH
raj sekhar
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 117
Dave
Your anecdote that didnt make to the press is a REAL scenario at many IT shops.I do agree on it. But there is also a risk in such of those designs that only technically-savvy can work on too ! So in effect isnt there a need to adopt a simpler design in order to have more resources work on it easily? So I'd luv to see an small note beside a particular pattern on its popularity and ease of working. Do you agree? Any comments?
Thanks
BILAL HAMEED
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 53
dave u didnt came here to answer
David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
Bilal,
I think a better way to characterize the book is that the technology provides a context for the discussion of the organizational issues. For example, in the situation of the 3D program I mentioned above, the technology involved is an important part of the story, but the lesson of the story has nothing to do with 3D programming. In the "This weeks book Giveaway" thread I posted some places where you can get sample chapters from the book, and related stuff. There are also links to that material from our book web page, http://www.vraps.com. If you take a look at that material, it might give you a clearer picture of the scope and style of the book.
Dave
Originally posted by BILAL HAMEED:
Dave so you are saying that your book also look into organizational level details of the architecture as well. so you want to say that your book covers every thing from management to technical details.


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
Raj,
I would never claim that the technology is not an important part of success. However, I'd describe some level technical substance is necessary for success. However, it is not the only thing you need to be successful.
Dave
Originally posted by raj sekhar:
Dave
Your anecdote that didnt make to the press is a REAL scenario at many IT shops.I do agree on it. But there is also a risk in such of those designs that only technically-savvy can work on too ! So in effect isnt there a need to adopt a simpler design in order to have more resources work on it easily? So I'd luv to see an small note beside a particular pattern on its popularity and ease of working. Do you agree? Any comments?
Thanks


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
Doug Wang
Ranch Hand

Joined: Oct 05, 2001
Posts: 445
Originally posted by David Kane:
An organization, in the context of the book, can be a development team, a division, even an entire company. We also look at relationships between organizations.
Dave

So who and when should care the architectural issue in software development? Does a team really need that?

Doug.

Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep
David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
Doug,
Architecture becomes important for projects of any significant size. In particular, architecture is important whenever you have software that is being shared. These days, at a minimum, virtually every software developer is a consumer of some third party's architcture or framework.
Dave
Originally posted by Doug Wang:
So who and when should care the architectural issue in software development? Does a team really need that?
[/B]


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
BILAL HAMEED
Ranch Hand

Joined: Nov 08, 2001
Posts: 53
hi
Dave how would you define significant size of software architecture. what size is significant
----------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Dave:
Architecture becomes important for projects of any significant size
-----------------------------------------------------------------
David Kane
Ranch Hand

Joined: Sep 20, 2001
Posts: 65
It depends on the context. The essential characterstic though is that components, API's and the like are shared.
Dave
Originally posted by BILAL HAMEED:
hi
Dave how would you define significant size of software architecture. what size is significant


------------------
David Kane
david_kane@houseofyin.com
Author of Software Architecture: Organizational Principles and Patterns
http://www.vraps.com
http://www.houseofyin.com
 
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