Originally posted by Mike Zhang
I happened to mention your name to few fellows in today's lunch. All of their response is "we always have such people, don't bother with them. let them whine." These fellows are all Americans.
...
??? Guess I need some help in interpretation.
Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
In this modern world, no country should and could completely closes its door to foreigners. When a boat hits a rock and water starts leaking into it, the first thing is to see if the hole can be fixed or blocked (may not be a proper terminology), instead of pushing some people into water to drop the weight. I don't know why some people like to focus on the minor part instead of the critical issues. I can tell you : those 50,000 H1B visa include lot of people who is holding the jobs. I have never heard such a thing these days in any country: Company asks foreigners to quit job just because they need to make rooms for citizens. I mean, if this foreigner is just laid off, I agree he/she should go home. But it is unfair to force him/her to quit the job if he/she is working on it well. That's why I say your idea of "sending all H1B home" is unfair and wrong.
Originally posted by mike zhang:
Rich,
As for you mentioned some companies "illegally" hired H1B visa by underpaying them. I think it is just case by case. There are always some people abusing the laws. they abuse everywhere, like Enron, MCI, those CFO/CEO are real killers to American employee. How much can 50,000 H1B people make annually ? how much did those bad guys make in the fraud ? My point is, we can NEVER 100% prevent any bad guys from taking advantage of policy, we can set more strict laws to monitor, but by no means should we completely abandoning it just because there are some bad guys and companies.
If you propose to setting up a strict monitoring law for this H1B, I totally agree with you. But your slogan is "sending all of H1B home". I don't think it makes sense.
Originally posted by mike zhang:
Following your logic, we should also send those non citizen graduate students home because they take the schlarship and TA/RA positions. As long as there is one American who is qualified for that TA/RA position, that foreign student should be sent home. So, Rich, I guess you should make another web site to propose that, hah ?
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
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Originally posted by alex young:
I am a H1B holder. My company hired me legally and I am working here legally. What I want to tell other H1B people here is: We don't need to spend (or waste) time on this topic here. If some people hate to see us working in this country, just let them propose whatever they want. I suggest all H1B people quit from this topic discussion. Let them enjoy themselves. We have more important things to do in our lives.
Originally posted by mike zhang:
You are right, Mr. Young. I will immediately quit from this topic discussion.
Originally posted by Richard Brokways:
Although Alex will not participate in this discussion, I wonder what his "skills" are. Do you think we could find an American citizen with "reasonably" equal skills to replace him? Given the economy and the number of US citizens who are unemployed, I think we could find one.
Rich
Let me explain this further. Say Sun needs somebody to write the JAX-RPC specification.It puts out an ad asking for people with experience in C++ and Java. Now everybody applies for it and the company finds a good candidate.Unfortunately he is on a H1b visa. The company still hires him because he is the best candidate.
Originally posted by Sach Baat:
The company hires him because he is the best candidate.If I was the hiring company this is what I would do.
Mr. Truth, I'm just sniping the Indians like the Indians ( and the rest of the world ) have sniped US so many times. If you go back in this thread, I make a clear statement about the foreigners taking pot shots at the natives. We're tired of it.
If you go back in history, US was the cheap labor that put Italian shoemakers out of business. This is the beauty of the free market system. Free trade has been a problem, for some. for a long time.
I have more foreigner friends than I do natives.
I carry the native American blood. My British cousins visited India. They used to wear red coats.
Correcting the injustices in the H1-B system will benefit east and west.
We have many problems to solve with IT: cancer, AIDS, pollution and unreliable utilities.
Humanity needs the brain power of Asia.
The US labor force cannot adapt at the speed of light or in internet years.
We are a society and when some won't follow the laws, anarchy is likely to break out. If we were to throw a necktie party for an H1-B person, you would denounce us as murderers. We just broke a law, what's the big deal?
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The only legal way to hire an H1B is if no American is available who can do the job. This does not mean that you can hire an H1B if he is a better candidate. H1B's can not compete with Americans for jobs. If an American is available and he can do the job, it does not matter if the H1B can do the job better. It is illegal to hire the H1B in that case.
Originally posted by Sach Baat:
but they did not have the required theoretical and practical knowledge to apply it to a specialized task.
the spirit of the law is being broken. The intent of the law is to temporarily fill a position. My problem is "temporary" workers become long term employees and US citizens.
The only legal way to hire an H1B is if no American is available who can do the job. This does not mean that you can hire an H1B if he is a better candidate. H1B's can not compete with Americans for jobs. If an American is available and he can do the job, it does not matter if the H1B can do the job better. It is illegal to hire the H1B in that case.
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I'm sure this is how many supporters of the porgram try to rationalize this illegal behavior. But the fact remains, it is illegal. The law does not allow the employers the choice if there are Americans (or legal residents) available who can do the job. Any HR person who can look at you and with a straight face say that the H-1B candidate was hired because he was the only one available posessing "the theoretical and practical knowledge" is lying and commiting a crime by hiring said person. And anybody who actually believes this line probably has a guilty conscience, or doesn't want to admit (or doesn't care) that they are also being used in this game. Of course these HR people are also saving some $$ on the books for their employer and they know they won't be prosecuted, so why should they care?
So you would be willing to violate the law if it helps your bottom line? Thank you for that lesson in morality.Originally posted by jerry Finin:
The bottom line is: company is not a welfare organization. It can make some compromise like I just mentioned, but not to the extent you want.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Paul posted --So you would be willing to violate the law if it helps your bottom line? Thank you for that lesson in morality.
And I also doubt very much that your little scenario reflects reality. Do you really think that in a nation of 300 million people that you have to go outside of the country to find a qualified person?
Originally posted by jerry Finin:
[QB]
skill level 5... skill level 6 ... skill level 8 ... skill level 9
[QB]
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Are you Ok, Rufus?
Are you sure you know what you talking about, Rufus?
statements by the H-1Bs themselves, who have formed the national organization ISN (www.isn.org) with a goal of persuading Congress to reform the program
You can tell me how to compute these magic skill levels?
Or do you guys have some open forum, where you discuss about how to compute? Or you just know?
I will give my best in my next seeking-a-new-job-round with still having a job. With all due respect, I have the firm conviction that all this skill level thing is an 90% abitrary process.
Are you representing the industry on the age discrimination issue as well?
Maybe along with your skills rating, you could quantify "OK".
Anonymous H1-B wimps - farewell, I hope you never get old and have to face age discrimination.
But I do think these days many companies (especifially consulting firms) are using some testing to test a candidate's level.
Of course, the H1Bs do get shafted a bit since they contibute towards social security and pay taxes, which they cannot avail of once they leave the country.
Originally posted by alex young:
I am a H1B holder. My company hired me legally and I am working here legally. What I want to tell other H1B people here is: We don't need to spend (or waste) time on this topic here. If some people hate to see us working in this country, just let them propose whatever they want. I suggest all H1B people quit from this topic discussion. Let them enjoy themselves. We have more important things to do in our lives.
www.websiteandsound.com
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten."
Originally posted by Rufus Bugleweed:
Are you sure that if you complete enough time to be eligible for social security that they won't send you your check?
So many of them forget that this country was built with taxes and blood which they made none of the contributions.
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Wage rates are down due to these blood sucking parasites called middle parties/consulting companies/oursourcing/placement agencies.
Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:
Some citizens whine H1B people get too much benefits as US citizens have. What do they have ? They can't stay here legally for 2 weeks once they lose a job, they can't get education loan, they can't change job as citizens can, they can't do lot of things. They are being discriminated by this country. Victims should not be blamed, should be compensated, no matter who made the mistake, company or government.
H1B are not slaves of two hundred years ago that you can freely move from or back to Africa. Who care who committee the fraud, if there is such fraud, we are the victims and we need some party to pay us back.
Did you see how Paul cut 87% off of his electric heat bill with 82 watts of micro heaters? |