Visas and Outsourcing

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

It's possible that companies like IBM have development centers rather than outsourcing because the quality of outsourcing was too poor. In fact, if outsourcing was so cost-effective, they'd still be doing it, but instead, they've actually created their own development centers, possibly so that they have control over the developers who work on their projects.

So can I infer from your statement that you'r ok if a company like IBM starts up its own outsourcing center in India and US companies outsource to them?
BTW, the reason big companies such as IBM have their own development center is because their main business is consulting. It doesn't make sense for them to outsource their main business. They save more by having their own development center because they have so many projects to be done. It is cost effective for them because of economy of numbers. If you are consuming millions of dollars of chocolates, may be you'll put up your own plant for producing chocolates. The reason would be cost. Not because Hershey's quality is bad.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

As I said, I have yet to find any successful outsourced projects in my industry, and in the meantime, my coworkers are unable to find work.

Well, all I can say is that either the companies that are outsouring are wrong or you are wrong. Only time will tell who is really wrong.
Or may be nobody is wrong. May be the AS400 business is shrinking so whatever work is left, the companies do not want to keep dedicated resources to do that.
What you fail to realize is: Capitalism == Minimize cost at all cost
So not matter how hoarse you cry, outsourcing will stay. If not to India, to Ghana or some other country as somebody mentioned before.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
But the vicious personal attacks

would like to hear you here.
I would have been perfectly content to end the H-1B and L-1 visas, and not really say much of anything about outsourcing, since in my mind it's pretty self-limiting anyway.

Really I dont care, what you think about visa and outsourcing and neither I think anyone cares.
But whole thing started because you tried to say that quality of work in India is not upto the mark for what-so-ever reason(you mentioned, work by newbies)
BUT this is not the case.
Do you think CMM Level-5 companies can afford to deliver degraded quality work.
Most of the Indian companies go for these certification(spending money on it) so that client can trust them for quality work.
We know how important for us to deliver a quality product because we want to survive in this political and wild world.
[ December 01, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
[b] So, as I take up the fight against outsourcing, remember that you have only yourselves to blame.
Joe

Nah, I, personally, am blaming the same culprit as you should...capitalism

[Joe Pluta]

One question at a time.
TT: Misleading phrases: Large percentage.
Reason: Not necessarily true. This is not an industry rule. It depends on a lot of factors such as client requirements, company size, resource availability etc. It is possible that a small company may not have any fresher in the whole company. So your generalization is invalid.
I'm not playing this game. Yes, a small company may not have freshers. But the industry standard is many freshers, according to you yourself. You made it clear that the majority of the people on a project a freshers, and now you're changing your story. So, in the words of the prosecuting attorney, were you lying then, or are you lying now?
I'm going to change "are normally freshers" to "could be freshers".

[Joe Pluta]

TT: Misleading phrases: have no knowledge of your business.
Reason: Not necessarily true. It is not an industry rule that all freshers do not necessarily know anything about client's business. For example, an MBA graduate may know a lot of financing than a 4yr seasoned java programmer. Corollary: It is also not necessarily true that an experienced programmer has a lot of business knowledge.
Correct statement could be:
These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project to asist experienced resourced and are not billed and may or may not even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" may or may not have any knowledge of your business, and may or may not interact with you or your users.
I'm not writing marketing crap, so the "may or may not" is not going to happen. Further, by definition Shadow Resources are not billed or show on the records according to Paul, so either he or you are wrong. It only stands to reason they don't talk to the end user either, since they're not being billed, unless you're saying you put people on projects who work with the end user and aren't billed. I don't believe that for a minute.
And when I say don't understand your business, this is because each business is unique. The Shadow Resource, since they do not work with the end user, has no knowledge of the unique characteristics of the business.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

One question at a time.
TT: Misleading phrases: They will post...
Reason: Not necessarily true.
Sorry. The entire argument of everyone here in order to justify those emails is that freshers are EXPECTED to post on the Internet. This stands.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

One question at a time.
TT: if you want only experienced
Agreed. The word "only" should be added. And the "per resource" issue is irrelevant to the discussion.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

But whole thing started because you tried to say that quality of work in India is not upto the mark for what-so-ever reason(you mentioned, work by newbies)
Where did I say the quality of work is not up to "the mark"?
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

We know how important for us to deliver a quality product because we want to survive in this political and wild world.
And yet Dell has stopped outsourcing the support desk for corporate clients.
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
We know how important for us to deliver a quality product because we want to survive in this political and wild world.
And yet Dell has stopped outsourcing the support desk for corporate clients.
Joe

No comments.
Though my little brain says, it is done to please people who are against Indian call centers.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
TT: Misleading phrases: have no knowledge of your business.
Reason: Not necessarily true. It is not an industry rule that all freshers do not necessarily know anything about client's business. For example, an MBA graduate may know a lot of financing than a 4yr seasoned java programmer. Corollary: It is also not necessarily true that an experienced programmer has a lot of business knowledge.
Correct statement could be:
These freshers are sometimes assigned to your project to asist experienced resourced and are not billed and may or may not even appear on the project records. These "Shadow Resources" may or may not have any knowledge of your business, and may or may not interact with you or your users.
I'm not writing marketing crap, so the "may or may not" is not going to happen. Further, by definition Shadow Resources are not billed or show on the records according to Paul, so either he or you are wrong. It only stands to reason they don't talk to the end user either, since they're not being billed, unless you're saying you put people on projects who work with the end user and aren't billed. I don't believe that for a minute.
And when I say don't understand your business, this is because each business is unique. The Shadow Resource, since they do not work with the end user, has no knowledge of the unique characteristics of the business.
Joe

Don't act so innocent or naive, Joe. Nothing is in black or white. And you know it. It is not always either I am wrong or somebody else is wrong. What you are trying to prove by hook or crook is that quality of outsourcing is bad because of freshers. Since I have debunked all your points, now you are playing words game and putting people on spot saying either you are wrong or he is wrong.
You did the same thing in your other "Resume as fiction" trhead. I made a general statement that all resumes lie to a certain degree(I meant it more philosophically, really. But I know you won't belive that.) but you've tried to give numerous hues to it...some even implying that I accept lieing.
Your argument that you are not playing marketing game is absurd. You ARE playing a de-marketing game by saying that freshers will be put a project. Yes, I said that most project do have freshers but I also explanied the scenerios in which they work. You are hell bent on taking my statements in isolation and drawing absurd inferences.
I am amazed at your blatant feigning of innocence when you say that a fresher cannot not have any business knowledge just because he doesn't interact with the end users. I have yet to see a team (even in the US) in which ALL the team members interact with the end user. Typically there are only a couple of people (called business analysts) who do all the interfacing between the end users and developers. I don't believe that you don't know this specially since you have decades of experiences. It is clear that either your are lieing or you don't have any practical experience in the industry. (Now do you realize how your medicine tastes? )
Frankly speaking, it isn't fun debating with you anymore. You've already made up your mind on this and you are knowingly misconstruing peoples' statements to support your logic. You might not compromise on your integrity while making your resume but you sure did while writing that article and while having a fair debate. Just like I mentioned in the other thread that people's parameters of itegrity are very dynamic.
So long, Joe.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
But whole thing started because you tried to say that quality of work in India is not upto the mark for what-so-ever reason(you mentioned, work by newbies)
Where did I say the quality of work is not up to "the mark"?
Joe

From your article:
=================
Cheap labor is like anything else that's cheap: You get what you pay for. But the companies using these services don't see it...yet.
This is the kind of quality that American corporations are buying to replace you and me.
=================
AW I think like someone suggested "cheap" word should be replaced by word "low wages" like you call "physically challenged" to handicap or senior citizen to an old man.
AW you might consider it cheap but after exchange rate, IT workers in India does not find it cheap at all

[Rufus BugleWeed]

originally posted by V�r�n Kha�n�

(Now I don�t think at the age of 56 years, you will still be learning the updated technologies and syntax).

Why not? How else is one going to know them?

[Joe Pluta]

Oh my! I seem to have ticked you off. You can change your story, take personal swings, and question my integrity, and now you're mad at me. Wow!

TT: Frankly speaking, it isn't fun debating with you anymore. You've already made up your mind on this and you are knowingly misconstruing peoples' statements to support your logic.
I'm not misconstruing anything! I'm just repeating what you say, Teri, and watching you backpedal. You said "some less experienced people and tons of freshers", not me.

TT: You might not compromise on your integrity while making your resume but you sure did while writing that article and while having a fair debate. Just like I mentioned in the other thread that people's parameters of itegrity are very dynamic.
I'm pretty pleased with my integrity. The fact that I've withstood the rancor in this thread and tried to get to some facts shows my integrity.

TT: So long, Joe.
Have a nice life!

Joe
[ December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Joe Pluta]

You get what you pay for.
I stand by that statement. If you compare the price you can pay to get solid, 10- or 20-year veterans with tons of industry-specific knowledge and no issues about time zones or language, compared to whatever rate you can get someone from an outsourcing firm who really has no background in the platform or the industry, I think we'd agree the money is better spent on the veteran. (Remember, this is companies laying off Americans who know their business to outsource to companies who have never seen the inside of their shop.)
So one big question really is, how many freshers are on a project? We're now getting some conflicting information. If it's only 10%, that's different than if it's 30%, 40% or 50%. And Teri's statement about some less experienced and tons of freshers rings true - truer than later statements that only 1 in 10 on a project are freshers.
This is the real sticking point, and unless we can get some definitive numbers here, it is up to management to know this issue.
Joe

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
You get what you pay for.
I stand by that statement. ...
(Remember, this is companies laying off Americans who know their business to outsource to companies who have never seen the inside of their shop.)
Joe

Like a mother elephant stands by its dead infant!?
Well I am not going to add anything here, but just wanted to point out that you have ignored some comments from Teri's post, which I was trying to make before, which you brushed off - about the 'American workers who knows the stuff'. As Teri, I am yet to see a team which full of experienced, specialist programmers with business knowledge with no newbies involved', which is being let go to be replaced by 'a team newbies asking questions in the internet'! Now thats what I meant when I said you see only what you want to see!
Anyway, I hope this has gone beyond your wildest expectations of being controversial � I hope you enjoyed it!

[Joe Pluta]

As Teri, I am yet to see a team which full of experienced, specialist programmers with business knowledge with no newbies involved', which is being let go to be replaced by 'a team newbies asking questions in the internet'!
Actually, Ashok, we have had situations here where American workers were forced to train foreign replacements prior to being laid off. These were visa workers from Tata who had no knowledge of the system.
http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/stories/stories/mikeemmons.html
http://magic-city-news.com/article_114.shtml
I really don't blame the visa holders, Ashok. They're simply working for a living like anyone else. The companies that bring these workers to America and the companies that use them to displace American workers, these are the people I blame. I don't think you personally would willingly want to put some other human being out of work. But that's what is happening, through no fault of your own.

Joe
[ December 01, 2003: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I don't think you personally would willingly want to put some other human being out of work.

PERSONAL ATTACK - You're a romatic Joe. Somebody said they would kill you for a cigarette.

[Ashok Mash]

I understand the situation very well (or so I believe), Joe! Many firms have been doing (still doing it, I am afraid) this very non-ethical lay-offs targeting pure profit figures, leaving us to wonder is there anything like corporate ethics, standards or goodwill. Its true, its sad and I am with you on that. These firms must be politely but firmly reminded about good work practices, how to respect their employees (irrespective of how expensive or cheap they are.)
That link you have posted is informative, and actually I am sad to say, more balanced than yours! He stated facts, ver bitter, but facts with first hand experience without any guess-work in between. Well, I know you meant well, and wanted to bring attention to the inactivity of American administration regarding ordinary people (why call them American?) lose their job due to outsourcing. Well, to be precise, unethical outsourcing. But as a reader, I found you were more on the 'blame Indians for the mess' sort of approach. Nothing else would justify why you chose to pick on Wipro for an almost anonymous (since one can never verify it) post!
All I am trying to say is, after reading your article, I chose to protest, because I personally understood that you are trying to accuse a reputed Indian firm for providing services to greedy American firms who create these situations in the first place. Instead of crying out loud about politicians accepting donations from these firms to do them such favors (like H1B, L1 etc), why dont someone try discussing this with share-holders of these firms? After all, they are the sole beneficiaries of these deals, are they not? But somehow I feel this wouldn�t be a favorable argument, because a good few of your readers would already be wise and demanding investors of these same firms!
Well, all I can think now is, all these posts later, none of us here has changed our pov's and its highly unlikely that anyone will ever! Lets call it a day here, shall we?

[Joe Pluta]

PERSONAL ATTACK - You're a romatic Joe. Somebody said they would kill you for a cigarette.
((LOL!)) Thanks, Rufus, for putting this into perspective...
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Well, all I can think now is, all these posts later, none of us here has changed our pov's and its highly unlikely that anyone will ever! Lets call it a day here, shall we?
Thanks, Ashok! I knew we could at least come to a point where we agree to disagree. And frankly, while you might not like how I wrote my article, it wasn't written to be liked, it was written to raise awareness. You took offense, and you've stated your position, and I think everyone who reads both is better off for understanding all sides of the issue.
More importantly, though, this article has raised the level of conversation on the issue in my industry, and that's my real goal. I point people here so they can hear your arguments, so I am trying to be as even-handed as possible, and in the end it's up to the management circles that are making these decisions. But at least now the folks doing the work are better armed, with both my take on the situation and the counterpoints of the people here.
And for that I thank you. It was a stirring debate, wasn't it?
Joe

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Ashok Mash:

Well, all I can think now is, all these posts later, none of us here has changed our pov's and its highly unlikely that anyone will ever! Lets call it a day here, shall we?

a voice of sanity!! .
It was good to read both the original article and this discussion.
I'd like to add that, just in my opinion, Teri went too hard on Joe in the last post. He was quoting what you said, even if you did not mean what he was inferring. I think Joe actually believed you meant 'lots' when you used the word 'tons' even if it wasnt your intent.
As a final bit, I dont have any stats to back this up, but the numbers of freshers working on a typical outsourced project(atleast in the high-reputation big companies like Wipro) is very low, and this number is going down because of the present state of economy. The only freshers who would manage to get into companies like Wipro would be IIT-ians or other highly regarded graduates...and they are by no means average.
Also these 'freshers' do not get to implement the critical or most complex parts of the systems until they have had enough experience.
cheers

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
You get what you pay for.
1) I stand by that statement.
.......
2) So one big question really is, how many freshers are on a project?
.........
3) it is up to management to know this issue.
Joe

Joe, you asked where had you mentioned about quality and I simply showed it to you [at least, now may I assume that you agreed that you talked about quality ]
And as I said if quality is poor (for what-so-ever reason) then money wont be put on poor quality product.
But the fact is that more work is being outsourced.
So all your argument about "What you pay is what you get" is applicable in US for US product.
And it is applicable in XYZ country for XYZ country products.
But as after exchange rate that does not remain cheap or low wage at all.
2) So one big question really is, how many freshers are on a project?
I dont care who is washing my clothes, whether my maid or her daughter as long as it is clean.
3) it is up to management to know this issue.
Very true, who are puting their money let them decide what they want.
The companies that bring these workers to America and the companies that use them to displace American workers,
Seriously, this is bad and must be resolved as soon as possible.
But again, my request to you to not compare anything with anything else.
And frankly, while you might not like how I wrote my article, it wasn't written to be liked, it was written to raise awareness.
But if you find some facts about your article to be wrong then it isnt your duty correct those facts. [or you should not write something on the basis of third party information.]

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
..It was a stirring debate, wasn't it?
Joe

""Yeah RIGHT""!!

[Arjun Shastry]

So whats the conclusion?
For a project of 10 people team,how many should be freshers?

[Ashok Mash]

If in America, 7/10 freshers (as experience engineers are even more expensive), but they will be considered as 'Experts' since they get to interact with other more experienced (read expensive) team members.
If in India, just 1 fresher in a team of 10 (to keep posting stupid questions on various forums, just to help anti-outsourcing activists), and the rest 9 experienced engineers will be considered as 'inexperienced and clueless' (read inexpensive) as they dont get to ( :roll: ) meet the clients or don't have the business expertise as its some sort of non-transferable knowledge.

PS: Only kidding!

[SJ Adnams]

according to nasscom
Overall, the Indian IT market has grown from Rs. 5,450 crores (US$ 1.73 billion) in 1994-95 to Rs. 79,337 crores (US$ 16.5 billion) in 2002-03, accounting for 3% of India's GDP in 2002-03.
Which suggests to me that only 1 in 10 indian developers will have 10 years experience.

[Stephen Pride]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
We know how important for us to deliver a quality product because we want to survive in this political and wild world.
And yet Dell has stopped outsourcing the support desk for corporate clients.
Joe

Originally posted by R K Singh:

No comments.
Though my little brain says, it is done to please people who are against Indian call centers.

I agree, however, are the people against the Indian call centers because it means American jobs have been replaced, or is it a problem with communication, or both?
[ December 03, 2003: Message edited by: Stephen Pride ]