Re: Ersin

[Mohanlal Karamchand]

I saw a message from Ersin here( it was deleted).
He said he was a Turk. Suddenly he is spouting Hindi!!!
Am I being paranoid or is everybody here an avatar of somebody else ?

[Mohanlal Karamchand]

Perhaps half of the people here are Paul Wheaton and the the other half are (his brother in law) Herb Slocombe.

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

Ersin is from Turkey. I don't know about the Hindi part.

There is only one Paul Wheaton.

[Mohanlal Karamchand]

Yeah! Maybe. But Jessica Sant is definitely his brother in law.

[Mohanlal Karamchand]

But why was he posting messages in Hindi ?
Ersin, if you are still around could you explain please ?
Perhaps he has passed on his user ID and password to Ravish.
[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: Mohandas Karamchand ]

[Jessica Sant]

Originally posted by Mohandas Karamchand:
Yeah! Maybe. But Jessica Sant is definitely his brother in law.

huh?

[Jim Yingst]

I am shocked at the suggestion that people in MD might be posting under a variety of assumed identities, "Mohandas".
For what it's worth, Ersin's post didn't have any lengthy Hindi passages - just a brief quote, with translation. It's entirely possible it was just a saying passed on by a Hindi friend or something. The post was deleted not for the Hindi, but because he was persistently discussing the war, knowing full well the topic is currently banned. (Yes, conspiracy theorists - it's a BIIIG JavaRanch coverup, that we delete some posts when they blatantly and intentionally violate our policies. Shocking, I know...) :roll:

[John Smith]

Is it ever going to stop? Posts deleted, threads closed, bartenders resigning, tensions rising, ranch hands uprising, green horns revolting. All of that so that the greenhorns can participate in the 1500+ posts meaningless thread in a friendly place? I am sorry, but this is completely ridiculous. If anything negatively affects the "image of JR", it's that endless pure garbage thread, not the controversial yet meaningful discussions, be it war, politics, or anything else. Perhaps you guys with authority are taking Paul's guidelines and intentions too literally, too seriously, and too far. I can't even discuss a song in a thread that was started by one sheriff and closed by another sheriff. What the hell is that? I noticed that quite a few people stopped posting in MD altogether after their opinions were deemed unfriendly-to-greenhorns-like. I am very troubled by this and by the future of JR. Do you really think that a place where people voices are shut down can be "friendly"? Let me offer you a quote from a novel that is considered one of the greatest works of modern Russian literature:
"Manuscripts do not burn". -- Mikhail Bulgakov, "The Master and Margarita". Incidentally, this book was banned in Russia for a long time. Guess what books were censored or banned in America? Here are a few familiar titles, among many others:
"The Bible"
"All Quiet on the Western Front"
"Mein Kampf"
"Anne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl"
"The Art of Love"
"Lolita"
"Land of the Free: A History of the United States"
"A Clockwork Orange"
Striking similar to the list of topics censored or banned in JR, don't you find it amusing? Source:
100 Banned Books: Censorship Histories of World Literature
Oh, I almost forgot the reason for my post. Here it is, -- I'd like to publicly resign my position as a ranch hand here, -- someone more priviledged please demote me to a friendly greenhorn. Actually, I have another idea: why don't we coin a new term to complement greenhorns, ranch hands, bartenders, and sheriffs. I suggest a title of a "ranch troublemaker", to be assigned to anyone who makes 30 posts that have been censored. I am not there yet, but you can throw an exception for me.
[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Fyodor Myshkin]

The post was deleted not for the Hindi, but because he was persistently discussing the war.

I am not complaining of an anti Hindi bias. They seemed to have stopped deleting Hindi messages. Recently I saw a thread with a lot of Hindi floating around unmolested.
I was expressing my shock and dismay at what Ersin had done to all of us. For years he kept up the pretence of being a Turk while he was Ravish in disguise all the time. I am not sure if I should be angry with Ersin , Ravish or Jessica ( I am sure she had something to do with all of this).
Please continue your crackdown on amateur politicians in MD. You have my blessings . Just make sure none of these new rules interfere with native drivellers.
[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Fyodor Myshkin ]

[Johannes de Jong]

" Jessica ( I am sure she had something to do with all of this)."
I think you are wrong.

[David Weitzman]

Eugene, nobody is attempting to maintain the "JavaRanch image." JavaRanch is a friendly place for Java greehorns. The site is run entirely by volunteers who have nothing to gain or lose from the site's success or lack thereof. Many of those volunteers are getting quite sick of dealing with the messes and barfights that keep popping up in MD. That's not why we came here, and it's really annoying trying to pick up all the broken glass off the floor. In fact, some have suggested that Meaningless Drivel be deleted entirely.

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Is it ever going to stop? Posts deleted, threads closed, bartenders resigning, tensions rising, people uprising... I am sorry, but this is completely ridiculous... Perhaps you guys with authority are taking Paul's guidelines and intentions too literally, to seriously, and too far. I can't even discuss a song in a thread that was started by one sheriff and closed by another sheriff. What the hell is that?... I am very troubled by this and by the future of JR.

You've heard what I'm about to say before. I only repeat it because I've heard what you wrote before, many times. The larger point might be: this is a discussion that goes nowhere until we understand what the other person fails to understand. So, to get on with it:
- This subject is not Meaningless Drivel. It is a serious discussion that concerns how we maintain JavaRanch. It belongs in the JavaRanch forum. I will continue to move threads of this sort where they belong because that's my moderator job here. Talk to Paul if you believe I am acting out of turn.
- I realize that a war raises a sense of moral outrage in most people. People call into question all forms of order in all sorts of ways, rational and irrational, significant and trivial. One possible outcome is cutting off people on the freeway at 90 mph because a friend of a friend who lives in a town where a Marine was born and raised just died in a helicopter accident somewhere near Basra. Another possible outcome is a person who helped to moderate this site grows disgusted at its lack of a moral stance on the US presence in Iraq. For some people to feel right about who they are and what they want to be, they need everyone they know to take a stand. In his own way, Ersin has asked JavaRanch to do that, and he hasn't liked the response, not because it isn't honest but because it isn't what he felt entitled to hear.
- My personal problem with Ersin's form of protest is that it simply violates one viewpoint in favor of his own. In a small but significant way, what Ersin has said is that he stands for what is right, and JavaRanch tacitly complies with 'the opposition' by failing to follow his lead. That's the nature of good old-fashioned -- and to this point I thought, utterly American -- American politics: everything must be polarized. You are for or against; you are part of the solution or part of the problem. JavaRanch seems to have said, "we don't do war, we do Java" and Ersin, among others, can't handle it.
- The only difference between Ersin and me on this point, in case you're interested, is that I don't use JavaRanch as a cover for my own values. I express myself in forums that are more appropriate to the theme. I actually detach my ass from my computer chair to do that. And even then, I don't feel like I've achieved anything substantial. But I don't vent it here out of some misdirected sense of moral imperative.
- I might in fact be taking my job too seriously. So, one more time: take it to the JavaRanch forum. That's where such concerns belong. Some of you no doubt will interpret this as an obvious attempt to "diffuse the issue" by filing it obscurity. I can only tell you this feeling is not substantively different from the guy who posts his one "very urgent" message in six different forums. That person's sense of urgency, in his own mind, far outweighs respect for site policy. It's not really different to interpret MD as the place where anything and everything is appropriate. The boundaries of meaninglessness are as well-defined as any other subject here, and we all should know that meaninglessness and seriousness are not mutually exclusive.
- So long as there are people here willing to turn any subject into a 'joke' that ultimately comes back to who's right and who's wrong in the Middler East, MD will not be what it was. I'm as sorry for that as anyone else. I respect what to me seem forced attempts at humor in MD because it at least tries to be true to the forum's purpose. The air of freedom and high spirits we once knew in MD isn't going to come back by way of policy-making.
- You hear talk of quitting this and that because people don't know why they come here anymore, given the changes. But let's not get uppity about how management has changed everything. We've had some real a*holes in the place, spewing self-righteousness and shock and dismay and disgust and anti-this and anti-that. The community, not just moderators, have tolerated much of it in the name of some higher principles. We've come to the end of that line for some people, and frankly, I think some people who keep coming here have been totally childish about it. Only a child refuses to understand that things have a limit to the stress they will endure. We've reached a limit -- it's time to come to terms with the idea that our collective patience for things to become "normal again" is not an infinite resource.
- There's more, but everyone's stopped reading by now, so I'll end with the expected emoticon.

[Thomas Paul]

If you want to talk about politics why not take it to the forums at java.sun.com? Oh, you mean they don't allow political discussions because it is a forum for discussing Java?

[John Smith]

If you want to talk about politics why not take it to the forums at java.sun.com? Oh, you mean they don't allow political discussions because it is a forum for discussing Java?

Thomas,
Please believe me, my intent is honest and straightforward, and it comes from my heart. All I wish is a continuing success for JR. I spend most of my time at JR in the SCJD Forum, and for a long time I considered MD a waste of time. That is, until I saw some discussions of interest over there. The Sun forums do not have non-Java forums, and that makes all the difference. I know many of you don't believe in absolutes, but I really don't see a middle ground here, -- either do not offer MD, or do not censor it. Anything in between will just antogonize people. That's all.
Eugene.
[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Thomas Paul]

And so the solution is to flood MD with posts? I hope you realize that you are convincing Paul that he should shut MD down.

[Sahir Shibley]

I thought Eugene's message was a warning about "conduct unbecoming a developer".
This thread was not intended to be a discussion about Javaranch.
Someone hijacked it halfway through. How does that make it eligible to be locked
and moved to another forum ?

Thomas,
Re closing of MD. I am sure the entire developer community is suitably cowed by
that threat.

Rgds
Sahir
[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Sahir Shibley ]

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:

This thread was not intended to be a discussion about Javaranch.
Someone hijacked it halfway through. How does that make it eligible to be locked and moved to another forum ?

There are two options available when moving a thread, locking the current one or deleting it. We normally choose locking so people don't think it just vanished.
As to the "how," this forum was in my judgment the most suitable. I applied no concrete "rule" other than my own sense of what was appropriate. Nothing about this post seems to suggest MD was the right place to begin with, and I am confident moving it out is the right thing to do. If JR was not the best landing spot, where would you have put it (assuming MD is not an option)?

[Jim Yingst]

Sahir - decloaking? What's the occasion? Good to "see" you as yourself for once. Unfortunately I can't really parse a meaningful argument in your reply, so I'll just say "hi" and move on...
[TP]: I hope you realize that you are convincing Paul that he should shut MD down.
Eh, seems harmless enough - and it's keeping Map off the streets at least. As "protests" go, I don't really have a problem with it, and find I mostly agree with its apparent point - that many of the threads in MD are too vapid to be worth reading, and if we can't have more interesting discussions in MD, the place isn't really something I'd want to spend much time at. I don't see how Paul's going to object to these sorts of posts at this point; it's a time-honored tradition in MD. Seems to keep some people entertained though. I just hope Eugene doesn't spend so long impersonating that kind of poster, that he actually starts to become on. That would be a loss for us all.
So Eugene, believe it or not I actually do agree with most of what you seem to want in MD. Sorry I closed an interesting thread on you earlier; I was in fact trying to adhere to some semblance of consistency with current stated policies, which many of our other posters seem to complain about a lot. I.e. just because Map is a moderator and feels like ignoring a policy, should we let her continue? No if we're closing war threads from other people, we should be closing a war thread from Map. That was my reasoning anyway.
A number of us do want to open MD up again to a wider range of posts; sorry it's taking so long. I think that there's a pretty good chance that we'll be able to do so (provided the place doesn't implode while we work out details). :roll: However I do strongly doubt it would ever be completely free of censorship, as you apparently desire. For some relatively obvious examples, we'd delete excess profanities, solicitations to commit crimes, SCPJ2 exam questions, etc. Less obviously, we'd want to delete "insults" (subject to some grey area in interpreting what's an unallowable insult, but at least things like "you ignorant jackass" would certainly be out). What if any additional restrictions may occur is still an open question. But skipping over those (admittedly very significant) details - when you say "either do not offer MD, or do not censor it" - do you mean that as an absolute? No censorship, even of things like profanities? Or are you amenable to posting in a forum that does have some censorship, but much less than we have now?
And what about an in-between compromise situation in which some specific topics might be banned, temporarily in most cases, but other "serious" topics are still allowed and encouraged. (Assume that there are clearer guidelines for what's OK and what's not.) For example, looking back at the history of MD after 9/11, I think we would have been better off if we'd said early on, "OK, no more talk about terrorism for two weeks - everyone cool off a bit". Then see how things go when the two weeks are up, and if things get too ugly again, repeat a few more times as necessary. I realize that retrictions of this sort are still objectionable to many people. But I'd see it as preferable to, say, a permanent ban on any political discussion in MD. Which is what we might be looking at if MD continues to spark these bouts of ill will that keep happening. (And once that happened, I personally wouldn't really care whether MD still existed or not - I wouldn't be visiting it any more anyway.) So I'm wondering what yoru perspective would be. Would you personally still participate in the forum if it did allow some (hopefully most) "serious" discussions, but restricted some (hopefully only temporarily)? Is this an absolute issue for you, or is there some room we might be able to work with?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:
I will help you moderators to be consistent with this new policy.

Speaking for myself at least, the assistance of every visitor to MD in keeping us "consistent" is not required or even remotely desired. We already have too many people interpreting what is and isn't acceptable. Thanks but no thanks.
Regarding what Jim said above, that's pretty close to my thinking on the situation.

[John Smith]

TP: And so the solution is to flood MD with posts? I hope you realize that you are convincing Paul that he should shut MD down.

JY: So I'm wondering what yoru perspective would be. Would you personally still participate in the forum if it did allow some (hopefully most) "serious" discussions, but restricted some (hopefully only temporarily)? Is this an absolute issue for you, or is there some room we might be able to work with?
Dear Thomas, Jim, and all fellow ranchers:
Thank you for your patience and tolerance with me, and for you willingness to listen and to discuss. I realize that I may have crossed the line with my dirty tactics in MD, and I admit it. Perhaps I plunged too deeply into the Russian absolutism and lost my American sanity in the process. However, it would be dishonest for me to say that I am sorry for what I've done. You know that feeling, after you find and suffocate the rapist of your daughter with your own hands? When your intellect tells you that you acted against the law, yet your emotional self suggests that you are justified?
Upon the analysis, it occurs to you that your emotions are a product of your brain working, and therefore your emotions are as legitimate as pure logic in the decision process. And then it goes deeper, -- you reconcile your knowledge from the biology and math classes and make an obvious conclusion that the brain doesn't function in accordance with the Bool's laws. Instead, it's a neural network trained to produce fuzzy signals. When the signal is somewhere between 0.4 and 0.6, you lack the sense of direction, you can't tell right from wrong, can't clearly distinguish evil from saint, and you feel lost in the universe. And even if the signal has enough phase and amplitude to be convincing, you try to second guess it. After all, it's all the result of your neural net trained over a period of time in a specific set of experiences and environment, and if it were different in time and space, the final output would have been different, too. So how do you know what's the right thing to do, and what to believe in?
And here comes the Theory of Absolutes to your rescue. They taught you in the Russian high school that sometime in 1920, when famine killed many millions in Russia, the communists raided the country side to expropriate the last food that the farmers had, to send it to the cities. And there was a boy who came to authorities and turned in his father, who was hiding the food so that his family could survive. The boy was made a national hero by the bolsheviks, and numerous schools and streets were named after him, and he was honored and loved by the Russians. But then, some 70 years later on, the communism collapsed, and all of a sudden, the people realized that the boy was a piece of concentrated evil, the ultimate in inhumanity (his father was executed by the authorities for counter-revolutionary sabotage, and the rest of the boy's family starved to death). If this story sounds too foreign to Americans, I encourage you to turn over to the short story by William Faulkner, "Barn Burning". It's the same idea, -- would you testify against your own father who is suspected of arson? What should prevail, the peace in the community or the dignity of its members?
So, what does the Theory of Absolutes tell you? It's that the societal norms, morals, laws, governments, traditions, fashions, and beliefs are transitory and volatile, and they are not to be blindly trusted. If John Walker Lindh were fighting on the taliban side against the taliban enemies in 1980, he would have been an American hero. Now, just 20 years later, he is a traitor for doing exactly same thing. And 20 years from now, he could as well be rehabilitated and released from prison, with the US government admitting to a horrible mistake.
Yet there are things that are Absolute. There is not a single human in the world that would say that a sunset over the sea is ugly. And if the alliens from Alpha Centavra came to Earth, they would be fascinated by the beauty of that sunset, too. The sunset is beautiful, period. To make the right decisions, you must rely on those absolutes, and abstract your brain from all the transitory, artificial, non-static, non-transcendental.
And after this lengthy introduction, I finally come to my point. Among the absolutes, there are things like human freedom and dignity. When you censor someone's expression, it compromises the intrinsic and universal absolutes in the most crude, vandalic way. You could make a point, of course, that the "fuck you, asshole" post also violates the absolutes, and therefore it is moral to delete it; but in my mind, it's a far greater evil to censor it than to let it be. You see, when you censor profanity and political opinions, you are driven by those transitory values, and are completely ignoring the absolutes. That "fuck you, asshole" post may as well be a coded message for some idea that is not understood in the context of the current geo-political or cultural paradigms, yet it may turn out to be the symbol of some paradise democratic state some 70 years later. The ideas are above the establishments on the evolutionary ladder, and whenever the establishment kills it, it constitutes the reverse of the food chain, reverse of the progress.
You know what was the last drop in the bucket of my consciousness? It's when the posts of <American Eagle> were deleted. I don't have the privilege to know the guy personally, but I've got to tell you, he made a lasting impression on me with his thoughtful, well written essays in MD. He was so much ahead of his opponents in argumentation, logic, depth of analysis, persuasiveness, language, and style, that I felt betrayed and offended by JR establishment when he was shut down. You know, it takes one quick strike to inflict the wound, but it may take a long, long time for the wound to heal. I am in real pain right now, and I am bleeding heavily from these wounds that JR inflicted on me. You may wonder why I am so sensitive to this, -- it stems from my background and experience in the country where the absolutes of human dignity were replaced by the pseudo-absolutes of a particular political system. You know what was our daily excercise in the Russian Language class? The teacher would write an assorted set of words on the blackboard: "America, homeless, 50 million hungry, 40% unemployed, militaristic, racist, anti-humane society". We were supposed to write an essay with the mandatory use of those words, time and time again. It's at that time when I made the commitment to leave the evil empire, -- I was choking in there, gasping for freedom. And now that I am here, I find it very awkward and unbelievable that I am trying to explain and convince my fellow Americans about the fundamental qualities of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the primacy of individuals over the structures and societies, the importance and vulnerability of human dignity, and the need to protect it.
Finally, if my mental experiments, hand waving, and gut spilling still don't convince you, let me offer one more concrete argument against the censorship. What's been practiced in MD is the collective punishment, -- if some posters get out of line, the entire thread is frequently closed. This brutal, primitive, uncivilized strategy may work in the military to break the will of people to make them good disciplined soldiers who must follow orders blindly, no questions asked. But what on Earth makes you think that this technique is appropriate in the international public forum?
Well, if you still have my attention, I'd like to thank you for listening to this stream of my consciousness. I am going to step aside now, try to cool myself down, and let the history take its course.
Eugene.
[ April 08, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Jason Menard]

Eugene,
While I agree with your comments on censorship for the most part, I don't see the argument holding in all cases. For example, if you visit a friend's house who asks you not to swear while visiting because he doesn't want his children exposed to such language in their home, your friend is censoring you, but it is his house and he is entitled to make the rules on what he deams is and isn't permissable behavior for people who visit his home. It's not government censorship or anything, he's just laying down the rules of his house. Violating the guidelines your friend asks you to abide by is showing disrespect to him, and by acting against these rules you are elevating your concerns over his.
Regarding <American Eagle>, his substantive posts and arguments were not the problem. He became a problem when he started being obnoxious, hurling insults, and being abusive. Although he was asked politely on multiple occassions to modify this behavior, he chose not to. There were also email exchanges with the moderators which you are probably not aware of. He chose to show disrespect to his hosts and the other guests, and eventually his host asked him to leave.
Like you, I appreciate the substantive expressions offered by yourself, AE before he wigged out, and many of the other posters. Hopefully we will get back to that point soon.
[ April 07, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Jason: While I agree with your comments on censorship for the most part, I don't see the argument holding in all cases. For example, if you visit a friend's house who asks you not to swear while visiting because he doesn't want his children exposed to such language in their home, your friend is censoring you, but it is his house and he is entitled to make the rules on what he deams is and isn't permissable behavior for people who visit his home.
Jason, the analogy would be correct if moderators posted a message "Please do not swear here...". When threads get closed, it's more like you gag your friend. Doesn't feel nice, to say the least.

[Jason Menard]

Map,
Using AE as an example, he was asked before other actions were taken. Regarding closed threads, and you know my personal feelings on the subject, the powers that be did mention what they did not want to see. Nothing was done out of the blue.
[ April 07, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[paul wheaton]

I keep finding thing that I want to say only to find that Michael or Thomas have already said exactly what I wanted to say.
When you censor someone's expression, it compromizes the intrinsic and universal absolutes
in the most crude, vandalic way
I'm pretty sure that no one is censored. At least by me or anyone on this site. You are welcome to create whatever web page you like. I've heard cases of child porn being censored, but I didn't do that.
As for this site, there are things that I choose to not publish. I feel that it degrades our community. Naturally, some people don't agree with me. And some of these people make some very persuasive points. So it seems important to talk this stuff out a bit and see if we can come up with something that address these points and my concerns.
What's been practiced in MD is the collective punishment, -- if some posters get out of line, the entire thread is frequently closed. This brutal, uncivilized strategy may work in the Army to break the will of people to make them disciplined, good soldiers. But what on Earth makes you think that this is approprite in the international public forum?
I think there is a difference between a publicly owned forum and a forum that is made available to the public by a private party.
Punish everybody? Every last person? I don't feel punished. I'll bet there are lots of people that use JavaRanch that never come to the MD forum. I would further guess that there is at least one or two people that are grateful for the current policy. Hardly "everybody".
It isn't as if folks were not given plenty of opportunity to mend their ways. I suppose that we could have brought down a heavy hand only on the people that were being less than friendly, but that could have involved more work than our staff would be capable of - and that probably would have taken them away from helping people learn about Java.
This solution is certainly less than optimal, but a better solution didn't seem to present itself.

[Mapraputa Is]

Jason,
I know, sorry for picking on you.
Paul,
the only rule we have written in MD now is "Be Nice!". What are other? No "war talk"? Any war at all, or just this particular one (I won't name it)? No politics? We should have these rule written at the top of the forum, because many participants are new/returned after long absence, and they have no idea that policies changed.

[Rick Portugal]

If you don't mind me saying so, you guys are taking this way too seriously.
If you see a nasty post, delete it. If the poster doesn't like it, they can screw. We are all adults here and we all know what "be nice" means. You guys are far too worried about hurting the feeling of a couple of crackpots.

You know that feeling, after you find and suffocate the rapist of your daughter with your own hands? When your intellect tells you that you acted against the law, yet your emotional self suggests that you are justified?

Are you comparing getting a post deleted to having your daughter raped? Are you out of your mind? Don't you think you're getting a bit carried away?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

"Be Nice!".
No "war talk"
No politics

Why suddenly there are these rules ??
Just becasue war is going on, dont talk abt war?
Politics, pardon me, is it world politics or US politics.
Can I discuss ABB or Mayawati here ?
AW I think avoiding something results in something ugly. I have example not able to put.
And from my personal exp, I will say that its always better to talk and get things cleared rather than avoiding talks and create more confusion.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Why suddenly there are these rules ??
Just becasue war is going on, dont talk abt war?

Because we always had the rule "Be Nice" - We found too many people not able to combine "War Talk" and "Be Nice" so war talk had to go until everyone learned to behave themselves.

Originally Posted by Rick Portugal
If you see a nasty post, delete it. If the poster doesn't like it, they can screw. We are all adults here and we all know what "be nice" means. You guys are far too worried about hurting the feeling of a couple of crackpots.

I agree, this has got way out of hand. I'd love to have it the way it was and just have to delete/edit the occasional not nice post. However, as it was it was becoming a full time job for all of the moderators and most of us already have one of those, one that actually pays!
Once people have calmed down and learned that the only way to get things back the way they were is by taking a step back and having a good think before writing a response to a topic they feel passionate about then we'll maybe get back to normal.

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by Rick Portugal:
If the poster doesn't like it, they can screw.

Woo Hoo. I don't like it. Be back later.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
but in my mind, it's a far greater evil to censor it than to let it be. You see, when you censor profanity and political opinions, you are driven by those transitory values, and are completely ignoring the absolutes.

Eugene,
What you are proposing is on the order of Anarchy. No rules. No censorship.
So just how much anarchy did your mother allow in HER home?
I'm thinking that if you attempted to actually express some of your profanity and extreme opinions in her kitchen, that you might have seen a great deal more of the back of the woodshed coming to understand things her way. Probably aided by your father .
Enforcing rules of behavior, both verbal and physical is part of what holds society together. Otherwise we would degenerate into savages in the name of freedom of expression.
No thank you. I find myself on your mothers side in this case. Just think of Meaningless Drivel as a visit to Paul's kitchen for a chat. Whatever Paul or Pauls wife thinks is acceptable in her kitchen is about as far as you should go in his forum.
[ April 08, 2003: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

So just how much anarchy did your mother allow in HER home?

My mothers kitchen is not open for everyone.
When I sit in Gumti/Tapri/"small tea shop", I have good discussion abt anything with my friends.
When I had hot blood, I used profanity also.
But you see old age stops me to use profanity and says to behave properly.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

My mothers kitchen is not open for everyone.

Neither is JavaRanch. It is only open to those that Paul does not ask to leave.

When I sit in Gumti/Tapri/"small tea shop", I have good discussion abt anything with my friends.
When I had hot blood, I used profanity also.
But you see old age stops me to use profanity and says to behave properly.

But you were expected to pay money to buy tea or whatever at the tea shop. Spending that money bought you the right to use that tea shop in a more unrestricted manner than if the shop owner had invited you into his personal kitchen for tea for free.
When you are a guest you should abide by the rules of the host/hostess.
Now if you want to SUBSCRIBE to Meaningless Drivel, as in pay money for the right to post there, THEN you might have some input and the right to request posting there in a more unrestricted manner.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
But you were expected to pay money to buy tea or whatever at the tea shop.

I beg your pardon, but in India I can sit as much time I want at any Gumti/Tapri/"small tea shop".
I dont know whether such concept like "Dhaba" (if you want to call, you can call it road side restaurant, dont get confused with Motel) or Gumti/Tapri is available in west or not.
Actually UP or Bihari guys are famous to waste time at these places.
Include one more place where always hot discussion goes and that is also free of cost, that is "Pan shop", especially in UP and Bihar.
Its total different story that they also get business by allowing people to come with friends, and genearlly people buy tea/Pan. But its not a compulsion.

When you are a guest you should abide by the rules of the host/hostess.
Oh I am guest. :roll:
Thanks for telling me that I am guest.
And I was thinking that I am rancher, whose terrotory is not bound to any forum or any thinking or to someone kitchen.
Just make my mood fresh.
In this hotel we serve food like home.
Oh thanks, if I want food like home then why would I go out for meal.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Oh I am guest. :roll:
Thanks for telling me that I am guest.
And I was thinking that I am rancher, whose terrotory is not bound to any forum or any thinking or to someone kitchen.

You don't like being a guest? You were thinking that you owned the place?
Perhaps you were thinking that as a "Rancher" you have a god given right to do whatever the heck that you want with no restrictions?
No one is telling you how to think. They are just asking you to behave. And you seem to take objection to that :roll: .

[Michael Morris]

They are just asking you to behave. And you seem to take objection to that.

Deja vu. That sounds like what went on at my house this morning.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
No one is telling you how to think. They are just asking you to behave. And you seem to take objection to that :roll: .

I will be happy if you make people agree that who were talking abt war were not behaving properly.
And FYI, Guest is supopose to be God (Atithi Devo Bhava)and rules are changed for guest.
No one imposes rules on guest.
Might be cultural diffrence.
AW I am done.
Please feel free to do what you want to do.
Its your site.
Everyone is guest and as per your culture you can put restrictions on guest.
You pay the bill for site.
If you want, feel free to close the MD or whole site.
When you find all nice guy, change the rule of be nice, and start again fighting on silly issues.
Till you find one who also wants to see the other side of globe keep it close.
Keep this rule till someone wants to come out of well.
ATB

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
And FYI, Guest is supopose to be God (Atithi Devo Bhava)and rules are changed for guest.
No one imposes rules on guest.
Might be cultural diffrence.

OK - I can see that the "cultural difference" probably caused a confusion here . Sorry for that.
In America, as a guest you are supposed to be on your "best behavior". You would definitely NOT be doing anything that the host would disapprove of (at least not intentionally).
Of course as a host you are supposed to go to extra effort to make all your guests feel comfortable.
That is the problem that Paul is facing. How to make such a diverse group of folks with differing cultural backgrounds all feel comfortable at the same time. Many of them are EXTREMELY uncomfortable when the debates get so hot in MD. Many of them feel insulted when their hot debates get shut down in MD.
Compromise is a difficult thing. < sigh >

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

OK - I can see that the "cultural difference" probably caused a confusion here . Sorry for that.

http://www.welcometoindia.com/cuisine/indexfrm.asp?index.asp
from the above page.
===========
In Sanskrit Literature the three fomous words 'Atithi Devo Bhava' or 'the guest is truly your god' are a dictum of hospitality in India. Indians believe that they are honoured if they share their mealtimes with guests. Even the poorest look foward to guests and are willing to share thir meagre food with guest. And of particular importance is the Indian woman's pride that she will not let a guest go away unfed or unhappy from her home. Indians are known for their incredible ability to serve food to their guests invited or uninvited
===========
No need to say sorry ...
I am back after one cigerette.

[Cindy Glass]

I kinda LIKE that idea
Hey Ravish . Can I come to YOUR house?
So how do you deal with multiple conflicting guests?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
I kinda LIKE that idea
Hey Ravish . Can I come to YOUR house?
So how do you deal with multiple conflicting guests?

Always welcome...
I will be really happy to be host of you. Just inform me before coming. (Not to go out of town , but to buy some good food.)