Java Certification

[Raj Puri]

I see many posting on this site every day passed with 90% ... I wonder how many actually landed up with jobs after the cert. I have not seen any job posting asking for Java certification. I wonder if it is worth the effort especially Since Java may land up becoming another programming language like C or C++ owned by all. I have couple of cerifications in MCSP/Oracle but I think these certifications are more like cash cow for companies/book writers, they really serve no purpose except give guideline for learning on a track, but the tracks are limited far from actual coding being done.

[Corey McGlone]

I don't think I've ever heard of a case where an employer required an employee to be certified or an instance when being certified, by itself, earned someone a position.
I think some people view this certification as a "Get A Job" ticket. Honestly, I think that's the wrong way to view it. I got my certification for a couple reasons - first, because I knew Java, but I wanted to learn the details behind the language and I felt the certification study would be a good way to accomplish that. Second, because I thought it might help me advance in my position (at least be worth a bit of a raise). (Notice that I didn't say that I got certified to get a job.)
In my opinion, being SCJP certified doesn't say much about you as a programmer. I know people that have done no "real world" programming that have become SCJP certified because they read a study book and memorized a bunch of answers. Does that make them good programmers? Absolutely not. Nothing gives you more credibility than some "real world" experience.
Some of the other Java certifications, such as the developer certification, I think, are a little more applicable, but I still don't see a certification as a "Get a Job Ticket."
So, to make an awfully long statement short, I think you need to ask yourself why you want to become certified. Based on that, determine if you think the certification is worthwhile.
Corey

[John Lee]

the only cert i saw in an ad is mcse. but having cert make you study your stuff, and make you confident.

[Jessica Sant]

I agree -- SCPJ isnt' guaranteed to get you a job, it *might* get an employer to notice you a bit more, but on the other hand being SCPJ doesn't mean that you know how to code. If someone has an excellent memory -- they don't need to know a lick of how to actually USE Java in order to pass. Now... the SCJD or SCEA exams on the other hand might help to prove to an employer that you are capable or building a significant program.
I got my SCPJ because I wanted to challenge myself, I wanted to see how well I understood the language, and I wanted to understand it better.
Before the economy took a dive, my employer would give you a couple hundred $ bonus for each cert you passed.

[Robbie kyodo]

So from Jessica view, we should grab a job with or without certification and then get as many certificate as possible to get more $$$

[Raj Puri]

Thanks you all for your constructive comments. I read KB book[Will not say I understood 100%, but did understand 70%] and actually used Java Servlets/beans little bit interfacing with Oracle forms. The kind of code I had to do, was to integrate some Java code supplied by Oracle with forms as beans. They give pretty much example and if you have basic understanding how you compile etc you can to do that. To me those are the real things I am expected to do than using ever confusing things like inner classes, variables scopes etc. which can make anyone trip. So kind of I can not corelate this whole SCJP or whatever Sun certs with real life examples. Besides news is that Sun is in bad financial shape meaning they will soon wind up where many corporations are headings in this troubled times. So this Java will end up more like a programming language which may best be a lower layers of Web Development tools, best we had so far are IDE's.

[Andy Bowes]

There are plenty of opportunities on JobServe in the UK that either require or desire Sun Certification. I bet there are plenty of other positions where it is not explicitly requested but would give you an advantage over other candidates if you have it.

[G Nadeem]

I send no agent or medium,
offer no representative of value,
but offer the value itself.

JLS.2nd Ed Page 31, Context "Values"
Primary Source. Walt Whitman,Carol of Occupations(1855),in Leaves of Grass

[Brian Joseph]

I'm looking (will be looking more seriously in a month or two) for a junior-level Java programmer/developer position, and view the certification as a way to help me focus my energy in increasing my understanding of the language to a higher level, feel more comfortable, become aware of more options when writing some code...
As a side effect, I hope to get certified and I of course will put that on my resume in hopes that at least an employer knows I'm serious about working in the language. I find that having goals, whatever they are keeps you motiviated, and that's a good thing.

[La Vish]

The fox looked up at the bunch of grapes.Looked like they were hanging just a little too high for the fox to reach them.So it stood there wondering what to do next.
A wise Owl,on a nearby tree, was watching the fox.It said,"If you want get at the grapes you need to calculate the hight,the floor hardness and the run up length.Use some common sense,a little trig,some geometry and physics and you should be able to calculate all this and the grapes would be yours"
Our Fox thought."Who is going to study all these crazy subjects just to jump up and reach the grapes.It is not worth it.After all these grapes are sour!"
With these famous thoughts our fox went away searching for easy picks elsewhere.
[ June 04, 2003: Message edited by: La Vish ]

[Raj Puri]

Hey, Thats a good joke. If you were pulling that on me, I will go with that. I must admit that there are many who are Foxes(including me), but where is the GRAPE!!. I have learnt many things in last 14 years in IT field and I could not say for sure that if a learn X that will stay with me forever, hence the FOXY posting. It simply makes sense to get ROI. If there is none than its one's
own perspective. For me, I am committed to date to pass SCJP knowing that there may be no returns!! Who knows, I can make it or not too, with a couple of questions going wrong one can easily flunk these tests.

[Jessica Sant]

Originally posted by Robbie kyodo:
So from Jessica view, we should grab a job with or without certification and then get as many certificate as possible to get more $$$

Note I said before the economy crashed. I got my certs after -- 'cause I wanted to challenge myself and understand the language better.
As with anything else -- do it 'cause YOU want to. You'll definitley get something out of it.

[Howard Roarke]

Hi ,
Interesting discussion .
According to me the SCJP exam expects one to literally be a compiler. I feel the exam can concentrate more on Java/OO concepts and how we use them in the real world . I understand that this is covered in the developer/architect exams but then I don't understand why they require us to act like a compiler in the Programmer Exam.
In the real world we use IDE tools like JBuilder etc and they point out the errors ! I feel it is just not correct to test somebody on such very fine details like syntax etc . I feel they can test people on concepts !
Any thoughts ??

[Matt Cao]

Hi Howard,
After you learned the hard way, you will appreciate the shorcut way. Without knowing the hard way, how do you know the one you have is a short cut way. Bare with it, won't be long when IDE is a fault tolerance free and learns how to repair itself. I would said in couple more years.
Cheers,
MCao

[La Vish]

Now,who created the compiler? Us,human beings.The people who developed the language created certain rules based on OO principles.They documented them in the java language specifications.They said,for example, no matter in which platform you use the language it would obey certain rules and produce consistant output.All these conditions and outcomes are documented in JLS.
This is the same with all the standard languages-C,C++,VB etc.
What does the compiler do? It just follows these rules of the language and produces consistant output.If I know the concept, for example of polymorphism,then I can tell you the correct method in the correct class the compiler is going to bind in any given circumstance.
Imagine you know your maths well and know that 10 plus 15 adds to 25.To save time they have invented the calculator programmed to produce the correct output for all the mathematical calculations of the world. I show you a calculator simulated on the screen and say,"
If I pressed 1,0,+,1,5 and = then what is the answer given by the calculator?".
If I know my mathematics concepts well I would give the correct answer and I don't have to worry how the calculator works it out, because if the calculator is correctly programmed then it would follow the correct concepts.
IMHO what you are being examined in SCJP is not your ability to guess what compiler does but based on your knowledge of the concepts trace out the path the compiler would take in the program to produce a correct and consistant output.

[Howard Roarke]

La Vish,
"what you are being examined in SCJP is not your ability to guess what compiler does but based on your knowledge of the concepts trace out the path the compiler would take in the program to produce a correct and consistant output."
But friend does that mean one has to be given a code containing all try catch and finally blocks running to 50 lines and the error is somewhere in the syntax of the main statement .
This just satisfies a wild whim of a crazy mind , I feel . I mean it is mental torture . And in doing so we are "missing the wood for all the trees" .
Maybe I am wrong in my thinking so ...
Thanks,
Howard

[La Vish]

Hi Howard,
In our Maya archery training school I find two kinds of learners:
The first kind of students come in and look at the target.Study the target and ask questions about the various circles and points.They study the bow and arrow.Look at the distance.Check the conditions. They aim and shoot-check their results-tune their equipment-ask more questions and keep practicing for hours.Their aim is always hitting the bulls eye.You ask them why they are there and they say they just love archery.
They are following what is generally described in motivational circles as inside-out approach.
Then there are the second kind of learners.They look at the target and tell me that they are not happy with the bulls eye.It is such a small circle and the red paint is faded. How can they see that cirlce from a distance.Why, they cannot even see the circles around the bulls eye properly.Can they get a new target with all markings freshly done.They ask me what difference does it make if they stand 25 meters and aim or if they stand 10 meters and aim. Then the wind conditions. Can't they practice indoors.Hey,look at the arrow.It is too light.Can they get a slightly heavier one.All this is happening even before they try and practice the art.
In fact they are following what is called the outside-in approach......