What are the main advantages of Mughal's book, compared to K&B Book?

[Ko Ko Naing]

Since there are mainly two books, which are popular among SCJP(1.4) aspirants, I do hope that each of them has its own advantages.
Mr.Mughal, could u mention any difference between your book and K&B book? Or do u use different approach to study for the exam? Coz I am on my way to upgrade mine to 1.4....
With Regards,

[Karthik Veeramani]

Here you go, Mr. Ko Ko Naing -
https://coderanch.com/t/240351/java-programmer-SCJP/certification/Khalid-Mughal-vs-Kathy-Sierra

[Ko Ko Naing]

Thanks for your information, Karthik...
If I am not wrong, I think the second edition of the book is not out yet at that moment... R they talking about the first edition?
Since I saw that the second edition jumped up to the stage with 4 and half stars in Amazon.com, I'm suspecting that there would be some kinda different approach that Mr.Mughal used... I'm expecting that kind of information from Mr.Mughal...
Anyway, I would really appreciate of your help...

[Karthik Veeramani]

ya u r probably right... i didnt know theres going to be a new version, and i knew only of the the older 1, which was for 1.2... however, i havent seen Mr. Mughal participating in this forum, so im not sure if u'll get a reply from him...

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Karthik Veeramani:
however, i havent seen Mr. Mughal participating in this forum, so im not sure if u'll get a reply from him...

No I didn't either...
I guess he will be here soon... We also have to care of the TIME ZONE of the world, since he is in Norway and it's one hour ahead Greenwich Standard Time...

[Karthik Veeramani]

he is in Norway and it's one hour ahead Greenwich Standard Time...

So what, it isnt untimely for him, its afternoon. Infact, its 5.5 hrs ahead here in my country.

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Karthik Veeramani:

So what, it isnt untimely for him, its afternoon.

Well, I don't think he's a jobless person, who is free in the afternoon...
It's very lucky that the Ranchers have a chance to talk with an author in book promotion period... I hope u understand the situation of the employed persons...

[Khalid A. Mughal]

Mughal & Rasmussen (M&R) vs. Sierra & Bates (S&B)
To quote what Kathy Sierra said about comparing the two books -- although the comparison was with the first edition of M&R [posted December 24, 2002 07:28 PM on javaranch]:
"That our book [S&B] is more festive. I believe their book [M&R] is best studied in a quiet, serious room, maybe a library. Ours is suitable-- appropriate even-- for taking to the local pub. "
We think this is a fair assessment of the writing style of the two books. I would compare the two books in terms of medical treatments: M&R has a surgical approach to the exam whereas S&B has a morphine-induced euphoria approach to the exam. Nothing negative about either approach -- whatever works for you!
Both books primarily cover the Programmer Certification exam. S&B also has some material for the Developer exam, but whether this is sufficient is debatable.
S&B is exam specific, whereas M&R covers some additional, essential topics as well. The scope of the exam changed significantly from Java 1.2 to Java 1.4, and the second edition of the book has obviously followed suit, and in the process, the book has also become more exam-specific

M&R is more detailed/exhaustive/technical on many topics than S&B (to mention a few topics: operator precedence and associativity, assertions, reference types, reference casting, inner classes). This is another prominent difference between the two books.
If one believes that proficiency in programming requires both theory and practice, then S&B does not offer the reader very much in way of complete source code examples that the reader can test and experiment with.
Many readers have pointed out that the questions in S&B are closer to the exam and maybe easier than those on the exam. Questions in M&R have been characterized by many readers as being harder than the ones on the exam, but also making the exam a breeze if you work through them.
In summary M&R poses a greater challenge to the reader, but the rewards are greater as well -- not just short-term and exam-specific, but the reader is well on the way to achieving Java-nirvana.
Cheers,
khalid
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Khalid A. Mughal ]
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Khalid A. Mughal ]

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Khalid A. Mughal:
"That our book [S&B] is more festive. I believe their book [M&R] is best studied in a quiet, serious room, maybe a library. Ours is suitable-- appropriate even-- for taking to the local pub. "

So it will be very useful for me, since I got time for reading books only on the Sky Train, when I am on the way between my home and my office...

Both books primarily cover the Programmer Certification exam. S&B also has some material for the Developer exam, but whether this is sufficient is debatable.

Kathy also mentioned that the developer's part of their book is supposed to be just a bonus to the book... :roll:

If one believes that proficiency in programming requires both theory and practice, then S&B does not offer the reader very much in way of complete source code examples that the reader can test and experiment with.

Do u mean that the book is not for the newbies?

[Khalid A. Mughal]

Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:

Do u mean that the book is not for the newbies?

Which book? M&R or S&B?
Our book is accessible to anyone who has some programming background.
All the best!
-- khalid

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Khalid A. Mughal:

Which book? M&R or S&B?
Our book is accessible to anyone who has some programming background.
All the best!
-- khalid

I mean M&R Book.... Since u mentioned that M&R is more detailed/exhaustive/technical on many topics than S&B (to mention a few topics: operator precedence and associativity, assertions, reference types, reference casting, inner classes)., is it possible for newbies to catch up the topics in your book?
I thank you very much for your prompt reply....

[Vivek Nidhi]

Can any one tell me that khalid's Book for 1.4 is available in Indian reprint.I know K&B is available in Indian reprint Edition
regs
Vivek Nidhi

[Khalid A. Mughal]

Originally posted by Vivek Nidhi:
Can any one tell me that khalid's Book for 1.4 is available in Indian reprint.I know K&B is available in Indian reprint Edition

We will ask our publisher and get back to you.
Cheers,
khalid

[Vad Fogel]

There have been recently some discussions that the current edition has issues with naming conventions (e.g. nonStaticMethod_1(), staticMethod_1_1()) and readability (having to jump back and forth across the chapters to catch up the concept). I'm curious to know first of all if the authors admit the above as issues, and, if so, how they are going to address them.
My second question is if Mr. Khalid would like to approximate the look and feel of his questions to the real exam questions.
Thanks.

[Khalid A. Mughal]

Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:

I mean M&R Book.... Since u mentioned that M&R is more detailed/exhaustive/technical on many topics than S&B (to mention a few topics: operator precedence and associativity, assertions, reference types, reference casting, inner classes)., is it possible for newbies to catch up the topics in your book?

We include the basics for each Java topic.
For instance, bitwise operators are easier to understand if you have knowledge of integer representation in memory. This topic is covered in an appendix.
See the detailed table of contents and sample chapters here:
http://www.ii.uib.no/~khalid/pgjc2e/
That should you give some idea of what the book demands of a newbie.
Some programming experience is essential, and some background in OOP does not hurt.
All the best.
-- khalid

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Vad Fogel:
My second question is if Mr. Khalid would like to approximate the look and feel of his questions to the real exam questions.
Thanks.

As Mr.Khalid has mentioned above, I hope the questions are harder than the real exam..... It's also the way WhizLabs is doing... Their simulations are always harder than the real exam...
Some prefer it, but some like the simulations that have the same level as the real questions...
I think Mr.Khalid can suggest u more on this issue....

[Steven Broadbent]

In my (limited) experience M and R is more like Dan's site in difficulty level. B & S is nearer to the exam standard, but a bit lighter on examples.
M and R also includes some gotchas that don't appear in B & S:-

int x[], y //defines an array and an integer.....
and others I can't recall at the mo. But as with Dan's questions, they take they a little beyond what the exam requires.
Just my 2 centesimi worth......

[Khalid A. Mughal]

Originally posted by Vad Fogel:
There have been recently some discussions that the current edition has issues with naming conventions (e.g. nonStaticMethod_1(), staticMethod_1_1()) and readability (having to jump back and forth across the chapters to catch up the concept). I'm curious to know first of all if the authors admit the above as issues, and, if so, how they are going to address them.
My second question is if Mr. Khalid would like to approximate the look and feel of his questions to the real exam questions.
Thanks.

Naming conventions and cross references ...
Depends how big an issue you want to make of these.
There are VERY few instances (no Java pun intended) where we have not followed the naming conventions.
I would be more worried if there were blatant errors in the book than naming conventions -- which are conventions after all.
As for cross references, it depends on how you use them. We have cross references to make you aware of other issues related to a topic. If you know about these issues, just ignore the cross reference. No big deal.
Why make all questions in the book closer to the real exam? There are plenty of mock exams for that.
In the book, we have plenty of questions closer to the real exam and we do have some that are easier, but we also have those that pose a challenge.
We firmly believe in not lulling the reader into thinking that only exam-like questions are necessary in preparing for the exam.
Please see the sample chapters here, and let me know what you personally think about these issues:
http://www.ii.uib.no/~khalid/pgjc2e/
I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
All the best.
-- khalid

[Ken Januski]

I'd just like to say that I loved the first edition of the M&R book. And I think it is a book to be read, and studied, in a quiet room. If you learn best that way then you'll probably find the book quite valuable. If the very thought of being stuck in a quiet room scares the pants off of you then.................
Oddly enough I've shied away from the S&B books (no slight intended) just because of the way they've been advertised and talked about, e.g. best read in a pub. I assume that that also is a correct description and one the authors would be happy with. So I really think any potential just has to honestly ask themselves: which sounds more like me and the way I like to learn?? Given the great reviews both have gotten I think that once you've made your decision as to which method sounds best to you that you'll be happy.

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Ken Januski:
I'd just like to say that I loved the first edition of the M&R book. And I think it is a book to be read, and studied, in a quiet room. If you learn best that way then you'll probably find the book quite valuable. If the very thought of being stuck in a quiet room scares the pants off of you then.................
Oddly enough I've shied away from the S&B books (no slight intended) just because of the way they've been advertised and talked about, e.g. best read in a pub. I assume that that also is a correct description and one the authors would be happy with. So I really think any potential just has to honestly ask themselves: which sounds more like me and the way I like to learn?? Given the great reviews both have gotten I think that once you've made your decision as to which method sounds best to you that you'll be happy.

If I am not wrong, I guess there is a misinterpretation... Mr.Mughal said that his book can be read in a local pub and S&B book is suitable in the quiet room like library...

[Ken Januski]

I believe Mr. Mughal was quoting/paraphrasing what S&B said about the M&R book. I'm pretty sure that after reading one chapter of each it will be pretty clear which should be read in which room:-)

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Khalid A. Mughal:

Why make all questions in the book closer to the real exam? There are plenty of mock exams for that.
In the book, we have plenty of questions closer to the real exam and we do have some that are easier, but we also have those that pose a challenge.
We firmly believe in not lulling the reader into thinking that only exam-like questions are necessary in preparing for the exam.

I think Vad Fogel is expecting a one-stop service book, which contains all of the exam level questions and exam-related topics... I guess he might want to refer to the book only for the SCJP exam intentionally...
But it's our profit to know more than what the exam wants...

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Ken Januski:
I believe Mr. Mughal was quoting/paraphrasing what S&B said about the M&R book. I'm pretty sure that after reading one chapter of each it will be pretty clear which should be read in which room:-)

I was wrong... I admit that I overlooked the quotation marks... Thank you for your correctness on my careless mistake...

[Vad Fogel]

Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:

I think Vad Fogel is expecting a one-stop service book, which contains all of the exam level questions and exam-related topics... I guess he might want to refer to the book only for the SCJP exam intentionally...
But it's our profit to know more than what the exam wants...

For the sake of the argument, if the book is named something like a Certification Comprehensive Primer, I expect it to be just that. There're tons of How To Program books out there to gain additional knowledge from, but few of them can get you up for the test, and even fewer dare to claim that. I personally like M&R thanks to its fundamental approach, and I never hesitate to recommend it around the forums here and outside. However, my beliefe is that a book on certification should thourougly focus on the scope of the exam, so otherwise valuable and awesome extra facts can be found in one of its appendix.

[Ko Ko Naing]

Yes, u r right, Van... A certification-related book should be focus on the exam objectives...
But I might guess that Mr.Mughal's book doesn't go too much beyond the scope of the exam... The authors just want the readers to know more extra things related to the exam topics...
I think we got a good conversation between us about the book...
Thanks,

[Sal DiStefano]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:
Do u mean that the book is not for the newbies?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just reading this scares me. Should newbies reallybe studying for an Exam? I guess the book would be a good place to start to get a comprehensive view of what a Java programmer needs to know. The idea of someone with some programming experience and a little OO backround getting this book and passing the test diminishes the value of the certification. I think this is why the new SCWCD is said to be much harder then the previous version. The SCJP is a stepping stone to the other SUN certifications but holds little value on its own. I just think before you go for a certification you should have documented experience, I waited almost 2 years before considering certification. I have met people who have passed the test and can't write code to save their lives.
Just my 2 cents
Sal

[Andre Roodt]

I have the first edition of M&R and just bought the K&B book. Both books are fantastic in their own right, and if you can afford it, buy them both. The K&B book is an easier read, but I would imagine that after passing the exam I won't be using it all that much as a reference. The M&R book on the other hand is one I will definitely keep as a reference book.
What I am doing is studying the K&B book, and then refering to M&R for further clarification and for the exercises as well. I have also purchased the JQPlus exam simulator that is recommended in M&R. My only hope is that the real life exam is not even half as difficult as the questions in the simulator.
I hope this helps.

[Kathy Sierra]

OK, since you're all doing the Big Comparison, I figured I better get my voice in here. I actually think that the comments made in this thread describe the differences quite well. My summary is this:
* Their book includes more detail in some areas than ours, and includes topics beyond the scope of the exam. This doesn't mean that our book will not leave you with a firm grasp of many of the key fundamentals. Indeed, Bert and I have a strong feeling that (to quote Marlene) the more you understand, the less you have to memorize. But there's no question that their book has some areas which are covered in more detail. We don't believe that this has a significant effect on your score either way. Again, it's really a personal choice.
* The Developer stuff in our book is in no way related to the SCJP, so it doesn't provide any help for someone taking SCJP, and indeed, we consider our developer stuff a *bonus* and not a complete treatment of the developer exam (which is why most of the content from the developer section is posted freely in the developer forum links).
* Their book has a more serious and in some cases precise tone. While almost nobody would find that offensive, *some* people DO find *our* style a little annoying. So while Bert and I are sure that our book is more *festive* that in no way makes it a better--or worse--choice for exam preparation. It's more about choosing what works for you, and both approaches will get the job done. Although I have to say, that from my few glances at their new edition, and I could be imaginging this, it seemed like some of the language in their new edition feels even just a tiny bit friendlier than I had felt from the first edition. And I will ALWAYS think that's a good thing
* I'm extremely jealous of their new cover. Orange is my second-favorite color, and I like their cover a whole lot better than ours. Not that this has anything to do with the exam, but I personally would be happy to have an orange book sitting there. Orange has very good properties, according to the color psychologists. In fact, here's a little learning theory tip since I can't resist... if you use their orange book to study, and then you go into the exam wearing something orange, your memory for the content in the book may be improved. That can only happen because the cover has such a definite effect. Our cover sucks!! (Except ours DOES have a quote on the top from the woman who wrote "Dating Design Patterns".)
Personally, I think they have a wonderful and thorough book, and one that you might be more likely to refer to after the exam than if you use ours. Ours is definitely about passing the exam, period.
You should choose ours only if the style really suits you. I don't believe there is any profound difference between the mock exams in both books. Even if our exams are perhaps a little closer to the real 1.4 exam, it would not be in a way that I believe would affect your ability to pass or get a good score. You're going to pass with either book, so the choice is much more about your preference.
I really have spent some time looking through their new book, and I think their book is pretty awesome. And now that I know just how frickin' hard it is to do one of these things, I have a lot of respect. They clearly took a lot of thoughtful time to revise for this new edition.
Anyway, cheers and welcome to the ranch Khalid!
cheers,
Kathy

[Dan Chisholm]

After reading this thread, I'm certain that many readers will remain somewhat confused until the following question is answered. Suppose a SCJP aspirant has been dancing all night in a pub in Dublin. While resting at the bar, he orders a pint of Guinness. While enjoying his first sip of the thick and creamy brew, he notices a beautiful red head walk over to the bar and sit down next to him. As he is getting ready to hit on her, he wants to make sure that he uses his best line. The first idea that pops into his head is a question concerning the difference between overriding an instance method and hiding a class method. He wants to make sure that he has all of his answer options straight. The mood is festive and he's in a pub so he's thinking about referring to K&B. At that instant, he remembers that M&R is highly recommended as a reference book. He confused. Which book should he use!

[Bert Bates]

If anybody starts hitting on any blond cowgirls around here they'll have me to answer to!

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Sal DiStefano:

Just reading this scares me. Should newbies reallybe studying for an Exam?

For me, whenever I want to learn a new technoloy, I go for the cert of that technology... Since I learn the certification book, I'll get both certification and the knowledge...
I studied for SCJP to study Java and I got both the cert and the knowledge... And so as the CCNA...

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Andr� Roodt:

I have also purchased the JQPlus exam simulator that is recommended in M&R.

The CD with the book contains WhizLabs Simulation Software... Does M&R recommend JQPlus for practicing, not the one accompanied with the book?
I think the difficulty level of JQPlus is almost the same as the real exam...

[Harwinder Bhatia]

Hello everybody
I found this thread really interesting and couldn't resist jumping in since I'm a customer of both M&R and K&B (or S&B). Btw, I passed my exam yesterday and did reasonably well .
Here's my take:
I started preparing for my exam about 5 months back and M&R was the only book I had. I found it very comprehensive and practical and was really impressed with the book. I had no idea about K&B book till about late Oct when I discovered this nice website called Javaranch.com. After spending some time on the certification forum, I found that this other book (K&B) was a real big hit here. First I resisted the temptation of buying this book as I was quite happy with my M&R one. But as I read more and more praises of K&B from people scoring 96% and 98%, I started feeling that I'm missing out on something really good. By the time I ordered the book (about 3 weeks ago), I had built very high expectations for this book. I was thinking that it was the all-in-one, one-stop, learn-it-all book for passing the certification exam.
When I received the book and read through the first 3 chapters, I was kinda disappointed with the content, not because the book was bad but because my expectations were too high. But I was certainly very impressed by the conversation style pattern of the book which Kathy rightly described as "festive". I was half-way through the book before I even knew. It was more like reading a story book and I didn't feel like I was actually "studying", which is definitely a plus for this book.
But I loved a few topics which were covered best by K&B book. No other book or resource on the internet covered these topics as well as this book. These topics were: hashCode & equals method, Collection framework. I would say this book is worth buying just for these 2 topics too. Moreover, as most of us who have taken the exam agree, the questions in Kathy's book are more close to the real exam.
I found the chapter on nested classes pretty weak in the K&B book especially when compared to M&R. M&R covers this topic really really really well. Also, the Wrapper classes are covered extremely well by M&R.
With due respect to authors of both the books, here's my opinion (entirely *personal*):
Q1. Which book helped me more?
Ans: Khalid's.
Q2. Which book did I enjoy more reading?
Ans: Kathy's (by a long margin)
Q3. Which book would I recommend for the SCJP1.4 exam to a friend?
Ans: Both (you cannot leave either one out)
Q4. If I were to pick one, which one would I choose?
Ans: Khalid's
Q5. Which book am I most likely to refer to in future?
Ans: Khalid's
And finally, thanks to Khalid, Kathy, Rasmussen and Bert for helping me pass the exam and more importantly learn Java !
Cheers
Harwinder

[Ko Ko Naing]

Hi Harwinder Bhatia,
Your post is really interesting... By the way, which exam simulation software did u use mainly for the exam? Since JQPlus is closer to the real exam, did u try it, despite the WhizLabs software accompanied with the M&R Book?
Thanks,

[Harwinder Bhatia]

Hello Ko Ko
I already posted my detailed response here:
https://coderanch.com/t/138048/sr/certification/Passed-SCJP-Couldn-ask-more
Cheers
Harwinder

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Harwinder Bhatia:
Hello Ko Ko
I already posted my detailed response here:
https://coderanch.com/t/138048/sr/certification/Passed-SCJP-Couldn-ask-more
Cheers
Harwinder

That is really great that u got 100% in SCJP using both of the books... But I didn�t see u use any simulation software in your post... U just did the mocks tha u have listed and got that amount of score? U r wonderful, since u didn't have any Java experience before...
I admire you, Harwinder...
By the way, do u find any weak topics, in both of the books? I heard that Mr.Mughal's book is better in the topic about Wrapper Classes and related stuffs... And I also heard that K&B book is better in Collection classes topic....
What is your opinion on it? I think the authors will not point which area in their book is weak and another book is weak...
Thanks in advance...

[Harwinder Bhatia]

Hi Ko Ko
Thanks for your generous comments.
I think if you get both the books + Dan Chisholm's mock exams + access to Java Ranch + other free mocks, you are pretty well covered. There are endless resources available for this exam but you need to draw a line somewhere.
Cheers
Harwinder

[Ko Ko Naing]

I'm wondering if u, as a successful SCJP who score 100%, can suggest me to upgrade my SCJP 1.2 to 1.4.... I'm on my way to it, since I felt that I am a little bit behind times...
If u are in my shoes, will u try to upgrade to the newest version? I just want to know your personal opinion.....
Since I got a strong foundation on GUI and it's pretty useful for my current job as well, by passing SCJP 1.2, I felt that I would get sthing from upgrading (or) passing SCJP 1.4 as well....
What's your opnion on it, Harwinder?

[Andre Roodt]

Originally posted by Ko Ko Naing:

The CD with the book contains WhizLabs Simulation Software... Does M&R recommend JQPlus for practicing, not the one accompanied with the book?
I think the difficulty level of JQPlus is almost the same as the real exam...

You are correct. It must be from the lack of sleep studying for the SCJP. JQPlus is bundled with SCWCD Exam Study Kit by H&J&J. I hope I haven't caused too much confusion.
[ December 17, 2003: Message edited by: Andr� Roodt ]

[Ko Ko Naing]

Originally posted by Andr� Roodt:

JQPlus is bundled with SCWCD Exam Study Kit by H&J&J. I hope I haven't caused too much confusion.
[ December 17, 2003: Message edited by: Andr� Roodt ]

Hi Andres,
I don't think that JQPlus is with SCWCD Study Kit... But JWebPlus is with the book.... I have read that book for three times already and I'm on my way to the new SCWCD in January as well...