SCJP but no experience

[maggi sesh]

hi,
Thanks to discussion forums of javaranch and many other sites I passed SCJP last week. Working in a field nowhere close to IT i suddenly became interested in Java.Learnt the basics in 2 months and worked hard for a month to get my certification. Now that its over i have started on a project in java which would help in my field too...
But a question is always there in my mind..would i be give a chance in the IT field with just my SCJP and neither school or work experience in IT???
I would be happy to know the experiece of people trying to look for a job with just the SCJP..does that help???

[William Joy]

I'm afraid it will be quite impossible for you to find work as a Java developer. Give up now.

[John Coxey]

Maggi:
Unfortunately the last poster is being brutally honest. With only the SJCP and no experience, I would say it would be next to impossible to get a job as a Java programmer.
You mentioned in your post that you were doing a Java project related to your company. This will certainly help your case. Definitely use it on your resume and bring up during interview time.
I would say your next step would be to jump into a data structures class (stacks, queues, linked lists, etc.) This is usually a 2nd year course at most colleges.
Hopefully, this class would expose you to a decent class project in the order of 5 to 6 thousand lines of code. Examples would be implementing the Monopoly Game, or an Airline Reservation System. Again, you will want to use this project to demo your skills to future employers.
I would also say you should look at XML and EJB as well.
Additional notes. Stay away from these 12 to 18 month computer courses that promise you a $40 to $60K job as a network administrator. There are hundreds of entry-level folks in this side of the industry. Take a look at www.jobcircle.com (discussion posts) to see what I am talking about.
I personally have an MS-Computer Science, BS-Computer Science, BS-Applied Mathematics, 3 yrs IT experience, 1 yr of teaching Java (3 credit class at University for 2 semestets) and 6 months commercial experience. Am a US Citizen (not an H1B). I am currently working on my SJCP, especially File I/O (which was not mentioned at all in the Osborne/Syngress text).
I have been looking for about 2 months now and would like to relocate to Colorado (preferrably). So far, I have had 5 or 6
interviews (both casual and technical), but so far no one is willing to have me move out to Colorado.
I have started to focus my job search towards my home area of Philadelphia.
My resume can be viewed at:
http://www.javajobs.com/javajobs/resumes/johncoxey.html
I hope this gives you an idea of what the state of the job market is like.

John Coxey
([e-mail])
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited November 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited November 01, 2000).]

[Archana Gupta]

Do go through the thread "JOB availability?" posted by solomon in the this forum, ie.job discussion.
It gives some really encouraging experiences of people who changed careers from totally computer-unrelated jobs to java programming and were SUCCESSFUL
lots of luck

[Anonymous]

While many of the comments on the board www.jobcirle.com (as well as Coxey's comments on this board) seem to me full of self pity (just two months of looking for work and no one is willing to move you to 2,000 miles to Colorado!!! Wow, that sounds tough!), these comments are instructive.
Trade schools are turning out network admins by the bundle and they aren't finding jobs. Kids sucked in by TV ads are borrowing money to go to those schools are getting burned. Maybe the trade schools will start teaching Java now (job opportunity for you Mr. Coxey!!!).
It is not realistic to expect that two months of study or even 12 or 18 months or four years is going to provide everything you're going to need to know to have a good job. Maybe you'll get lucky but don't expect to.
I think, in his situation, Mr. Sesh has the right idea. Use what you know in whatever job you have. Use your knowledge in whatever field you find yourself. This technology can be used in many places and in many ways. There is no shortage of people in the world who will tell to give up, go away, go off and die (get used to ignoring them). Don't think a degree or a certification by itself is going solve all of your problems. Just take advantage of the chances you get.
[This message has been edited by Oliver Fiktishous (edited November 02, 2000).]

[Rahul Rathore]

Dear Maggi
I have been practicing as a lawyer for the last 9 (NINE) years. I always harboured a secret fascination for computers, but never could really gather the courage to jump into a new profession. Then at the age of 31 I decided that I had only one life, and why not spend what remains of it doing what I liked. I therefore gave up the legal profession much to the consternation and disapproval of those around me.
I enrolled for an 'Application Developers' course in IBM ACE (which is now about to finish). I played hard, scored outstanding in all my papers, and scored 98% in SCJP.
Luckily I have landed a job as 'software engineer' in a reasonably good company. The Company does not have many java projects but initially I think one takes what one gets. And I don't even have any computer related college/university degree !! But I am determined to learn while I work, and to rise to the very top.
So Maggi - Listen to your heart and go for it if that's what you want. But do it with motivation and passion. The challenge for people like us is much bigger. The rewards will also be sweeter.

[Anonymous]

Note that Bill Joy at Sun (not jerk "William Joy" above), the inventor of Jini doesn't have a degree in computer science. I believe he has one in philosphy.
I doubt that Mr. Gosling, the inventor of Java, has a degree in computer science. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard. Having a degree in CS is I'm sure quite valuable but other experience is valuable as well. What you don't know you can learn.

[maggi sesh]

hi to all,
Thank u very much. I'm really happy to have all your valuable opinions and suggestions. I do understand that SCJP is just the begining for me. I have now decided to take some courses at the univ.of colorado, denver (thanks Mr.Coxey for ur suggestions on the courses) . XML and EJB would definitely be very useful for future. These courses should help me to strengthen my knowledge.
I'm doing my research in biotechnology with full interest. As Mr.Rahul mentioned it is going to be a very difficult decision for me to move on to a different field. But i love java and the project im doing would help me out to do the microarray-chip analysis (on which im currently working )much faster.. very soon i should be able to put it on the web for all people to use my tool. I would be thankful to all who have given me the encouragement to keep going.. thanks oliver, archana, rahul, Coxey..
May be u were right william..but im waiting for the day when i can disprove u and show that IT is one field which has accepted people from any other field as long as they have the talent to reach out to it... and surely it would reward me if i work for it
thanks
maggi

[Peter Lyons]

Because the IT industry is so much in need of people today there is a real opportunity for career changers to get in. I am one of them, and there are many others. Paul Wheaton says that many companies consider the SCJP equivalent to a year of experience. I am absolutely convinced that you can find a Java Developer job with your present skills.
Maggi, maybe to complement your SCJP, you could enroll at a reputable technical college and take some formal coursework in Java. You would broaden your knowledge, you would get more experience coding, and it would look good on your resume. I would encourage you to be actively sending out resumes every day and following up with phone calls. Ask for referrals if you get turned down.
I'll bet if you sent out 100 resumes and followed up as best you can you would have the position you want within 3 months.

[John Coxey]

Oliver:
I mentioned the www.jobcircle.com site to illustrate my point regarding these "HTML" trade schools that promise $40-$60K in 12 to 18 months. Apparently you seem to agree with me here - that these are a rippoff. I agree, there seems to be a lot of self pity there.
Am I wallowing in self pity. Nope.
I mentioned my efforts in trying to relocate to Colorado, and my job search story so far, to illustrate Maggi's need to continue his/her education. As you read through my post - I tried to illustrate to Maggi on what I thought should be his/her next step. I certainly thought those were constructive comments.
Again, I do not think that just an SJCP by itself is going to get you a Java job. I would have to believe a potential employer would want to see some actual programming examples - if all you had was just the SJCP.
Any comments?
Oliver, are you looking or employed? Do you have a resume posted?
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited November 02, 2000).]

[John Coxey]

Maggi:
Let us know how your job search goes. Good luck.
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[maggi sesh]

hi Mr.Coxey,
I shall definitely write about my job search , once i begin. Before sending my resume out , i would like to finish the (java) project that im currently working on. Now that im actually designing, programming and trouble shooting independantly for my project i realise the full potential of java applications. I'm having a great time with it.
thanks
maggi

[Junaid Bhatra]

It's funny you say this...Bill Joy has a MS in Comp Sc from Cal Berkely, where he wrote the vi editor, as well as helped develop BSD Unix, as a graduate student! James Gosling has a PhD in Comp Sc from Carnegie Mellon, where he was a principal in the famous Andrew project.
Personally I do think that Comp Sc degree does matter. However if you have several years work ex, the importance is less.

Originally posted by Oliver Fiktishous:
Note that Bill Joy at Sun (not jerk "William Joy" above), the inventor of Jini doesn't have a degree in computer science. I believe he has one in philosphy.
I doubt that Mr. Gosling, the inventor of Java, has a degree in computer science. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard. Having a degree in CS is I'm sure quite valuable but other experience is valuable as well. What you don't know you can learn.

[Eric Barnhill]

Maggi,
Your concerns come up a lot here, so people won't necessarily contribute each time. But there are a lot of success stories around here from people without experience or a CS degree, who moved into Java after a certification (gradually, of course).
Occasionally someone shows up who feels the need to discourage people, even with the market as it is. "William Joy" is evidently such a person. I think if you went through some of the past threads, you'd see that his views are in the minority.
Eric

[a hui]

I'd like to point out to everyone that Maggi did pass the SJCP. I'm still learning for and it, and for sure I can testify it's hard work!!!
To pass this exam, one NEED to have a good knowledge of basic programming in Java. To my opinion, this certification should allow her to find a job at least at a junior level in the IT field.
AH