Jobs In Us

[Ken Pullin]

I feel like the job market in the US is very strong at the present time. It upsets me to see people with no experience that have passed the SCJP test think that they are just somehow going to receive hundreds of job offers from US companies at outrageous salaries. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, can pass the SCJP test. All you have to do is buy a $45 book, study for 2-3 months, and pay $150. The SCJP tests you on your ability to memorize how many bytes a String is or how you handle events in AWT. This in no way tests you on your programming ability. I'll bet anyone on this board that I can take 5 strangers off of the street, let them study for 3 months, and then they will take the test and pass. Does this mean that they have the required skills to land a job in java development shop? NO!! To land a job as a entry level programmer in a development shop, you have to have other skills besides programming. Personally, I would want to hire someone that could speak proper English, have good interpersonal skills, and that had a college degree. This shows me that the person is capable of getting along with his or her peers, starting a task and finishing it, and also can communicate with potential clients and coworkers. The programming skills that the entry level person needs will be acquired over the life of the job.
I don't mean to sound negative, I just hate to see people complaining that "java is dead". Java is not dead, it is very alive. It's just like any other job though, you have to have certain other skills besides Java to land a job.
I'm not saying that the SJCP is not important. It is important because it also shows the person was dedicated and passed the test. But having the SJCP by itself does not guarantee a job.
Ken

[Shama Khan]

The following skills
1) Good command of the English language
2) A college degree
3) Good interpersonal skills
are a pre-requisite for any programming job. I thought that was understood. I don't think anyone here is confused about that.
But there were people who got into this field w/o a college degree (in the 70's and 80's) - because the demand was stronger than supply. In the same way, people w/o adequate english speaking skills were able to get jobs in the 90s. In the present day, I think it's really hard to get a job if one doesn't have the 3 skills.
But then there are always these stereotypes that you've to be a real nerd (totally lacking interpersonal skills) to be a great programmer - believe me I still see some of those around in my company. but the numbers are diminishing.
Having worked very hard to get my computer science and MIS degrees, I also used to resent the thought that anyone can get into the field. But I've found that mostly it's hype.
I've learned to just mind my business and work hard at getting ahead.

[bill bozeman]

Ken, I'll agree with you on everything but one point. If you were to take my wife, study with her and try to teach her enough Java so she could pass the SCJP, you would need a couple of years, and then just maybe. Love my wife to death, but after 2 years, she still doesn't know how to use the internet. Computers are just not her thing. However, on just about everything else, she is smarter than me.

Bill

[Eric Barnhill]

Pursuant to Javaranch rules, this thread has been forwarded to Bill Bozeman's wife.

[Eric Barnhill]

[bill bozeman]

I better edit this real quick

[Peter Lyons]

Ken, I totally agree.
Your post is consistent with what I found when I got an entry level position in Java last summer.
I have a college degree (in Geography - how useful!), I speekum Inglish pretty good, and I had about ten years working for one company (not programming). I know one thing for sure - I didn't get hired for my depth of Java knowledge. I did enroll in two quarters of Java classes at a local tech school. Like you said, most of the programming knowledge you need can be picked up on the job. I still don't have my SCJP; I hope to test sometime this year though.
I am convinced the most important thing I did was to be very pro-active in my job search. I spent a couple hours a day for a few months sending out resumes and calling hiring managers or recruiters to follow up, and follow up, and follow up. I sent out at least 100 resumes (all via e-mail), and I think one person called me. I did all the rest of the calling. So, those 100 resumes turned into 6 interviews, and 1 job offer (which I'm very thankful for!) I was looking in another city and made it clear that I'd pay my own relocation. Why stack that against me?
It's paid off.

[Roger Chiang]

Hi! Ken:
You have mentioned that only three months can train a street met person to pass SCJP test. Great idea! In my opinion, if just want to pass the test, even less than one month is possible for a beginner, (if under my training and cooperation!) The secrete and strategy are always out there.
However, one SCJP has to put much effort to find the job is obviously true. Some of them are lucky and get one quick. Some of us take months and months. The factors might be discussed in above posting.
Since the recruiting market being segmented by many companies and the complex situation being so hard to handle, even so convenient in the Internet would exhaust our searching and following. We've got to react fast, fast, and fast...... and we have to prepare well before we move fast.
However, if we don't depend on these service, what better way we can depend on...? May well there has an Ideal Empire can waive out these kinds of burden and still make us feel comfortable in the job pool?...
( ....I have a dream!.......but never comes true....)

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Sun Certified Java Programmer 2
[This message has been edited by Roger Chiang (edited March 15, 2001).]