what to do about long hours

[Annie Weaver]

Do those of you who code Java now work more than forty hour weeks? Is it a problem for you? Is there any way we can change employer's expectations to make the overtime optional? Is it true that geeks have no life anyway?

[John Coxey]

Annie:
See if you can work from home.
I actually get more done at home that at work. No interruptions from co-workers or bosses.
AMS has a policy that anything over 47.5 hrs/week results in comp time. Can build up to maximum of 80 hours (2 weeks) comp time and then take it as vacation. Cannot get cash for comp time. So, after 80 hours of comp time - I work no more overtime. If they are willing to throw in some extra perks then fine. If not, tough!!!

Remember, the game goes both ways.
John Coxey
([e-mail])
[phone]
[This message has been edited by John Coxey (edited April 24, 2001).]

[Aleksey Matiychenko]

It all depends on where you work and what are the rewards.
I work in financial industry and everybody typically works more than 40 hours. My typical day is 8:15 - 6.
Some companies / groups are more flexible and some people can work from home.
In most places however your rewards(bonuses) will reflect your efforts.
In most professional jobs I have never heard of overtime being paid.
Another thing. You can alway become a consultant, charge by the hour and work on your schedule. You may need to have more experience to do that though

[Tom Pridham]

I have worked for several Technology companies....I have NEVER worked less than 50hrs/week unless I was working as a consultant. Each company is trying to deliver faster than their competitor. With the Internet, this just speeds things up even more.

[M Prembroke]

No option.
And if you want a job and especialy if you are over 35, don't do anything to hint you have kids or are even married. If you have an SUV or Minivan, try to borrow a small car to drive to the job interview. In fact, try to make it appear that when you do go home you study and program more, or are taking night classes.

Originally posted by Annie Weaver:
Do those of you who code Java now work more than forty hour weeks? Is it a problem for you? Is there any way we can change employer's expectations to make the overtime optional? Is it true that geeks have no life anyway?

[Aleksey Matiychenko]

I don't know where you work but that place has got to sock.
If the place that you interview will have a problem with you having family commitment then you don't want to work there anyway.
Hiding family is not an answer.
[This message has been edited by Aleksey Matiychenko (edited April 25, 2001).]

[John Coxey]

I drive a blue Chrysler minivan. There are like 50 empty bottles of diet pepsi on the passenger side. There are about 10 fly rods - make that 9 after last week - that are in rod tubes in the back.
I have McDonalds wrappers everywhere.
I never wash my car - ever!!! Would not want the shine to scare the fish when I pull up to the stream
There is a mattress (air one) in the back.
My minivan smells because of two pairs of wet waders that never get dry. I fish every day. More, now that I am not working.
The one hubcap is missing - cuz I left it in Wyoming last month.
The grill is smashed in - cuz I hit my 2nd deer in 4 months.
----
I own a minivan - not because of kids - but because I usually sleep in the back.
The hell with any company that says I can't drive a minivan.
And the hell with any company that says I gotta work more that 60 hours a week. Yes, I understand deadlines. But normally, as soon as 5:00PM comes around - I am out the door and gone fishing.
TOUGH!!!
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[M Prembroke]

Your lack of faith is disturbing!
We employers don't want human employees, we want geeks. You shouldn't have a girlfriend/wife (or boyfriend/husband)- we EXPECT you to be chained to your computer. You are allowed to watch one re-run of Star Trek per night for social training.
If you have any hobbies, you are restricted to Chess and Quake 3.
You are expected to live in a bachelor(ette) studio apartment, which is suppose to be resemble a college dorm room as close as possible- for life! Work and study! Work and study!

[John Coxey]

If Mr.Employer wants loyalty - then he/she had better start showing it.
There is no loyalty / job security AT ALL in the US job market.
So, if I want to go fish - tough sh*t Mr. Employer - I am going fishing. No discussion. And if the Trico hatch (look it up), comes off between 7AM and 10AM - I will be in the office by 10:30AM. And if the Sulphur hatch (look it up) comes off at 4PM - I am out of there by 3:30PM.
Now, if I am treated like a human being - and the pay is decent - and I do not get yelled at for tying flies at my desk - then we can work something out.
I actually got screamed at by some b*tch at EDS for tying flies at my desk on a Saturday afternoon - while doing production support. Note: Flies are tied with materials like feathers / thread / glass beads - not real insect parts (in case you are wondering).
Again, I understand deadlines. Sorry, this is not McDonald's or Burger King. I've invested 8 years of my life - probably US$100K in tution and 8 years of lost wages. Show me some respect and maybe you will get some in return.
Remember, the game goes both ways.
John Coxey
([e-mail])
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Time for your fishing lesson. This board is informative as well as educational. Enjoy!!!

FYI: Tricos - are a black mayfly that swarm by the tens of thousands and lay their eggs and die on the stream. Trout love them. They hatch between July 4th and September 15th in the morning housrs. Maddening, as these are very very tiny flies (size 24 in PA).
FYI: Sulphurs - are orange/yellow (hence the name sulphur) mayflies that hatch/mate/lay their eggs on stream. Again, trout love them. Not nearly as dense of a hatch as the Tricos. They hatch in the evening - and stop about 30 minutes after dark. From mid-May to mid-June. Fun and easy to fish - medium size fly - (size 14/16 in PA).
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- END -

[Annie Weaver]

I drive a wagon with a child seat. I am usually reluctant to talk about family at an interview, but I try to ask a potential coworker (not the hiring boss) how often they work more than forty hours a week. I know it is risky, but I try to convince myself I don't want a job that takes over my whole life. But actually I worked more long hours as a government contractor generalist before I became a programmer.
I may go back to temping next. The money's great, I don't need the benefits, and because they employers pay extra for the fortyfirst hour, they happily send you home.
I did work at home for awhile, and I loved the solitude - my dog is the perfect coworker. Except she can't tell a good joke. But she loves all of mine! But I think as a beginner programmer, I would really like to have a mentor, or at least some code reviews. Then again, my dog loves all my code, too!

[Annie Weaver]

If you could teach a fly yoga, would it tie itself?
My dog thinks that's hilarious.

[John Coxey]

While we are on the subject of kids/family and mini-vans.
What do you guys/gals do about wedding bands/rings?
I would have hoped that a wedding band would signal stability???
----
I am still single - never been married. I do have a cat (a gorgeous red 15 yr old persian male) - but had to leave him with parents back in Pennsylvania.
---
Just curious.
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Peter Lyons]

I've been following this conversation and am grateful that I don't see these games being played here where I work. I have never been pressured to work long hours. Usually I put in right around 40 hours. When myself and the team I work with have a deadline to meet we work longer hours as required to get the job done; not because someone is standing over us, but because we each take responsibility for our share of the project. I'm very happy with that arrangement. In fact, during the fourth quarter of last year those of us who were willing commit to work 50 hours a week instead of 40 earned a nice bonus in January. I didn't feel like they owed me, but I was very thankful for it!
As for being married or single, I work with plenty of both and the company seems to play fair with everyone. One woman is on maternity leave. Another guy left for several months to take care of his sick sister. I will take a few days off any time now to be with my wife during the birth of our third child ...
I did not realize people felt pressured to try and look unmarried or at least childless to get a programming job where they are expected to put in 60 hours a week.
Peter Lyons <--- knows he has it better than he deserves!

[John M. Gabriele]

i always wear my wedding band on interviews; going for the
"stability" look.
[This message has been edited by john gabriele (edited April 27, 2001).]

[Junaid Bhatra]

I usually work around 60 hrs a week, although I'm not required to. I mean it's purely deadline-based. As long as I'm able to do the work on time, it doesn't matter if I work 40 hrs or 80 hrs. I don't get a dime more for working say 80 hrs. Anyways if you really want a 9-5, 40 hr/week kinda job, consulting seems the way to go.
The thing that I really like about my job are flexible timings. I'm not required to come in at 8 or 9 am. I can come in and leave any time. As long as I get the work done on time, no one cares. Isn't that the way it should be?
Anyways I really love my work environment, it's a lot of fun (or atleast it used to be before the layoffs took place). I was one of the lucky ones to survive the 33% layoffs. But who knows how long it will last!

[Shama Khan]

When I go to interviews I don't wear my wedding band nor mention my husband or daughter. I know that it's illegal for employers to ask if you are married or have kids.
For guys, the wedding band may relay stability but for females it relays need of flexibility and inability to work long hours.
The reason I don't mention my family is that it's none of their business whether I'm married or not. I also don't want an unspoken fact to act as a weakness. If I get the job and feel that the place is anti-family, I'll leave and still have the upper hand.
By the way, I read somewhere that businesses are preferring to hire mothers with young kids. When these businesses allow mothers flexibility to deal with a child's illness or vice versa, the mothers in return are more loyal and work harder for their employers.
I know I am more loyal to my boss because he's very understanding about my issues - it could be because he's also married and has a kid.
[This message has been edited by Shama Khan (edited May 01, 2001).]

[Joel Cochran]

Wow...I forgot what it was like in the world of Corporate Hell.
There is loyalty in the US Job Market, just not in Corporate America. Only people can exhibit loyalty and understanding, so if you want REAL loyalty, understanding, and compassion from an employer you have to work for a person and not a corporate entity.
God forbid I ever have to go for another interview (only because I love where I am now), but I'm not afraid of any part of my life. I have a wife, kids, minivan, life, the works. I don't take jobs because of the schedule or the benefits. I take jobs because of the glimmer of satisfaction, which I have in oodles working for a very small employer.
No one 'expects' me to work more than 40. I often do because I'm goal oriented and I love to finish a project above and beyond expectations. I had a conversation with a (former) boss who said that if you don't work more than 40 hours a week you don't seem committed to the company, to which I replied that if you expect me to work more than 40 hours per week then the company doesn't seem committed to the employees.
Anyway, I wouldn't want to work for a company that cared whether or not I had 'baggage'. I'm NOT a geek, I just play one on the Internet!
Ciao
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I'm a soldier in the NetScape Wars...
Joel