What does "fired" mean?

[Bala Mohan]

Hi,
What does it mean when someone is fired?
Is it same as layoff? How is it different from "termination"?
Does firing necessarily mean that there is some kind of misconduct on the side of employee?
When someone is terminated from a job with mutual agrement with the company because of lack of work or lack of work at a prefered location, is it still called firing?
This situation occured when there was as requirement to fill out a Agency Clearence check. One of the questions was:
Did anything below happen to you in the last <..> years? (Yes or No) If Yes, choose one of the following.
1. You were fired.
2. Resigned after being told that you were fired.
3. Asked to leave because of misconduct (..or something like that).
4. ...(dont remember.. but something reflecting bad on the side of employee).
5. Left a company under unpleasent circumstances.
If an employment was terminated with mutual agreement from a company, but not under unpleasent conditions, because of lack of work at specific location, which one is the best option to choose.
Does anyone know choosing anything of the above will effect the Clearence?
With somany companies laying off people, is this question relavent at all? In that case, the answer to the question is Yes or No?
Any help is very much appriciated..
Bala. M.

[Roseanne Zhang]

The first four are very clear, not hard to answer at all. The 2/3/4 are only euphemism of 1.
Only the fifth is a little subtle. Mostly, someone had been forced to resign, but the thing was treated as quit to save face. this situation usually holds on someone important such as manager/director/VP/etc. In the last situation, it is usually considered as a mutual agreement, only a few top level people know the real story...
[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]

[Roseanne Zhang]

One answer is clear, if you were laid-off or quit your job for a new job or a unpaid vacation/travel/raising children/fun/etc., the answer to the above question is definitely NO.
If you hesitate to answer the question, my guess is you probably know what should be your answer...
[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]

[Roseanne Zhang]

Termination from employee point of view:
1) Be Laid-off
2) Quit
3) Employer changed their mind, and don't want or need to hire you any more. It usually happed in a few days/weeks when you started to work there.
4) Be terminated by the consulting firm since the client contract terminated. I think this is equivalent to be laid-off.
5) Be fired or be fired subtlely.
The clearance actually only concerns the #5, nothing else. That is if you did something wrong from the employer point of view to cause the termination to happen. Otherwise, your answer should be NO.
[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]

[Bala Mohan]

Thank you for your replies, Roseanne.
I was a little confused by the question because, I thought "being fired from a job" is a general term like "termination from a job by the employer" whether be for bad reasons or for lack of work. In my case, I was terminated from work by one of my previous employers because I was insisting on a certain location at that time and they did not have any projects at that time (a lot of people were on 'bench').
So, from what I understand from above is that my answer should have been 'No'.
When I asked to fill out the forms, I was so much lacking in time, I chose 'Yes' but, I gave explanation as to what happened in the remarks section.
Did anyone have any prior experience about what would happen in a case like this? And how I could modify this information after I submitted the forms? Or is it too late?
- Bala

[Roseanne Zhang]

I do not know the procedure, however, I would definitely send a correction to them, since otherwise, it might go to your file, and never get corrected.
[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Bala Mohan:
Hi,
What does it mean when someone is fired?
Is it same as layoff? How is it different from "termination"?
Does firing necessarily mean that there is some kind of misconduct on the side of employee?
When someone is terminated from a job with mutual agrement with the company because of lack of work or lack of work at a prefered location, is it still called firing?
...
1. You were fired.
2. Resigned after being told that you were fired.
3. Asked to leave because of misconduct (..or something like that).
4. ...(dont remember.. but something reflecting bad on the side of employee).
5. Left a company under unpleasent circumstances.
...
With somany companies laying off people, is this question relavent at all? In that case, the answer to the question is Yes or No?

In the US...
Being fired is anytime you are told the company no long wants you to work there. You can be fired with or without cause. "Fired with cause" is when they have a reason, e.g. failure to complete assignments, showing up late, harassing co-workers, etc. Fired without cause is just simply firing you. The key difference is that if you are fired with cause, you cannot collect unemployment.
Layoffs are where the company says, "we like you, but we just can't afford you right now." In theory, they want to hire you back when work picks up. Lack of work/location falls into this category--assuming they would otherwise keep him around.
Most companies are afraid of the legal ramifications of firing, and so many companies will officially lay-off employees who are fired.
Forced to resign is, as Roseanne said, a face saying move. "We're going to fire you, but we're giving you a chance to leave now, so you don't have to say you were fired."

Is this question still relevant? Of course. Just because thousands are getting laid off, doesn't mean people aren't being fired with cause--and that's important to know.

--Mark

[John Coxey]

Being fired means: "You ain't workin' here no more".
You never-ever put or mention on resume that you were fired - EVER!!!
You put down that you were laid-off due to downsizing.
My reasons for this:
1. To do otherwise is instant death for your job search.
2. If old company tells your old employer that you were "fired" - whamo!!! instant lawsuit. I may not win - but I'm damned sure going to try.
3. You have friends at old employer - or just friends. Use them for references. And remember, 90% of companies don't call references.
4. If you tell unemployment office you were fired as opposed to laid-off ---- you cannot get unemployment.
If you get unemployment - guess what?? - I guess you were laid off.
5. It ain't a big deal - just tell future employer that you got laid off. Otherwise, what will happen is that you will get into a criticism of former boss/company - blaming them for you being fired because it wasn't your fault.
In otherwords - you've started a "bitch session" in the middle of an interview.
Again, utter death to your job search.
6. If you were at company less than 6 months - hell, just forget that you ever worked there. Just say you learned skills (if any) on your own.
------------------
- Is it honest? Probably not entirely - but it's not downright lying either.
- If management can do it to us employees/grunts - then it's only fair we can give it right back to them.
- Seriously - if you even "hint" at being fired on a resume or interview - it's like death. So you gotta either drop it or change it to a layoff.
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Again, it's how the game is played.
Johnny
([e-mail])

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by John Coxey:

4. If you tell unemployment office you were fired as opposed to laid-off ---- you cannot get unemployment.
If you get unemployment - guess what?? - I guess you were laid off.

Absolutely untrue. Certainly untrue in MA, and probably elsewhere.

Taken from http://www.slrsonline.org/Reference/FARQ/unemployment.html#fired:

Can a person collect unemployment if they've been fired?
(7/3/02) On the Department of Employment and Training's web site, http://www.detma.org, they had this to say:
"Will I be able to collect UI benefits if I am fired?
Massachusetts General Laws, Chapter 151A , governs the unemployment insurance program. According to the law, you may be eligible if you were fired for poor perfomance. However, if your employer is able to show that you were fired for deliberate misconduct or violation of a company rule, you may be disqualified."

--Mark

[John Coxey]

Mark:
In Colorado - If your termination of employment is due to employee-related causes (ie: you quit, you were fired due to bad performance on your part) - you cannot get unemployment.
If you were laid-off due to economic reasons (ie: downsizing, slow economy) then you qualify for unemployment.
--------
My friend (from HP - who was fired for not passing SCJP2 exam - he was hired as manager not as coder) in PA - was worried he would not get unemployment benefits since he was fired. But when contacted by PA unemployment - HP said the guy was just laid off.
-------
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Jim Baiter]

It looks like in California, they decide this case by case - CA unemployment

[John Coxey]

Jim/Mark:
My big problm with Colorado unemployment was that HP put my severance package under "Vacation Pay" and the check came to house like 3 months after I had been laid-off.
I had received my last pay check with 2 weeks of unused vacation in Jan - about 2 weeks after layoff).
So this threw Colorado unemployment into a tizzy (as we say). And I had to wait for one of their "referes" to call HP and then issue a formal decision.
It was no big deal - but caused me about a 12 week delay in getting my unemployment. All Colorado did then was just issue me a "mama check" for the 12 previous weeks owed to me.
-----------
Johnny

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by John Coxey:
Mark:
In Colorado - If your termination of employment is due to employee-related causes (ie: you quit, you were fired due to bad performance on your part) - you cannot get unemployment.

My point was just that the blanet statement of "fired = no unemployment" is not universally true.
It sounds like CO has the same rules as MA. If you quit or are fired for cause, no unemployment. Of course, you can be fired without cause. You can also be fired and contest the reasons for cause (e.g. getting into a argument with a boss is not necessarily sufficent cause).
--Mark