Hmmmmm...

[Vitor Belfort]

I understand that the market is bad and all that and it would be impossible for 100% of us developers to have jobs at the same time. Some kind of competition is healthy so that we can have competent workers that produce good software.... The kind of work that was done during 98-99-2000 era at those internet consulting places was appalling...
However, I graduated last may and I scored a contract with a company... Finished it so now i'm basically out of a job again...
I really doubt I can actually find a job with the kind of insane requirements out there today... They expect college graduates to know weblogic and microsoft sql serever, thorw in some C# and how about a little iPlanet and at the end they say (2 years exp. in pharmaceuticals req.)...
Should I call it quits and wash dishes for a living? I still have to pay $400 dollars every month for the student loan....
Was a degree in C.S. really the worst investment I have ever made? Is the I.T. industry really a mockery? I have some experience and SCJP, and they don't even call you once?
What's the right shot to call in a situation like this? Wash dishes? Become a waiter? Throw my diploma in the garbage can?
There's no more time to wait and apply in vain... I honestly think that choosing a degree in C.S. was one of the worst decisions I ever made... I honestly don't know what shot to call right now... What am I gonna put on my resume when I apply fron now on?
Feb 2003 -> July 2003 Waiter???
Hahaha.... It's really messed up

[Matthew Phillips]

One of my teachers explained it this way. Our goal is to put ourselves out of a job. The IT market is down right now, but it will pick back up. The key is to keep your skills current for when the pick up occurs.

[Mark Herschberg]

A couple thoughts....
If the requirements are totally unrealistic, then no on can fill them, and they will eventually changes.
Unemployment rates are still are relative historical lows (considering the last 60 some years).
The market will get better--the recovery will probably start as soon as the US resolves its position on Iraq.
Many people misunderstood the supply-demand curve; although in fairness, it wasn't just developers but most people in the US. Jumping into a gold rush 5 years after it started is usually not a good strategy--but people though there was more gold then there it really turned out to be so it didn't seem like such a bad idea at the time.
--Mark

[Vitor Belfort]

The way it seems to me right now is that Technology in and of itself does not present too many opprotunities... Some tech sectors that are independent of Industrial trends are gaming and few others... Most tech companies exist for the sole purpose of serving the traditional Industry.
A lot of traditional companies have stopped investing in new infrastructure and anything of sorts because in many cases it's simply not needed. There's a benefit/cost ratio for every IT investment a company makes and these ratios are getting low.
The demand for IT workers during the golden era was purely artificial... However the interest sparked in IT back then sent a lot of kids to college and got them hoping big.
I don't think it will be long until the market is saturated with developers. There are new waves of people coming out, just as hungry as us, and looking and at less and less opportunities.
On the other hand, the industry always needs plain old business majors with no management skills that always bug the works for Estimated Time of Completion... :roll:
And of course we can say that the unemployment levels are at a historical low... But we don't live in the 60's or 70's and our context is different! The tech industry didn't even exist back then. People have different expectations in different eras... And without any fancy distortions, the truth remains that ultimately the IT industry is a disaster. People say it gets better but I just think it's blind optimism. I might fight hard now and slave myself for one pathetic opportunity, but that's only because I have no choice.
What really bugs me about employers is that they expect you to have experience and knowledge of their field... be it pharmaceuticals, finance, bio-tech.... Background is good, but specialization is for insects.
And once you're in one of these sectors, you're stuck with it! We are the slaves of the industry

[shay Aluko]

I think a CIS degree is not a good investment anymore. The best thing to is to get a business major/MBA and pick up some java along the way. My master's degree was a waste of money as far as i am concerned. I should have gone for an MBA

[Thomas Paul]

Go for a Masters full time that way you can put off your loans. Then go for a Phd. Then become a college professor.

[Mark Herschberg]

I must wholeheartedly disagree with Vitor.

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
The way it seems to me right now is that Technology in and of itself does not present too many opprotunities... Some tech sectors that are independent of Industrial trends are gaming and few others... Most tech companies exist for the sole purpose of serving the traditional Industry.

Technology is still a field adding extensive value to multiple domains. If you look at how many hundreds of millions are spent each year (including recent ones) developing and maintaining IT systems, it seems apparent that they are considered valuable.
Sure the tech sector is down, but so is the whole economy.

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
A lot of traditional companies have stopped investing in new infrastructure and anything of sorts because in many cases it's simply not needed. There's a benefit/cost ratio for every IT investment a company makes and these ratios are getting low.

That's incorrect. Most have stopped investing in IT for the same reason they stopped investing in most areas--economic uncertainty. I'd wager money that once the econmy starts to improve we'll see continued spending in the IT area (it just may be overseas).

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
The demand for IT workers during the golden era was purely artificial... However the interest sparked in IT back then sent a lot of kids to college and got them hoping big.

Well, I agree that the economics driving the system lcked fundamentals. Now, if you look at the numbers, to date, IT still has one of the highest industry growth rates in history, and many of the people who entered the field were right to do so. We just overshot the mark (in many ways).

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
I don't think it will be long until the market is saturated with developers. There are new waves of people coming out, just as hungry as us, and looking and at less and less opportunities.

Well, I actually think we are saturated. Do you know how many people with no CS background took some course in web design and started calling themselves a "programmer?" Additionally, companies are now able to move some development work offshore, further decreasing local demand in western nations.

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
And of course we can say that the unemployment levels are at a historical low... But we don't live in the 60's or 70's and our context is different!

Yeah, we live in better times., economically speaking.

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
The tech industry didn't even exist back then. People have different expectations in different eras... And without any fancy distortions, the truth remains that ultimately the IT industry is a disaster.

Disaster how? That people mispredicted demand? Eh, I have little sympathy for that. Disaster for a lack of jobs? Again, there is no other industry in history which has had such a high growth rate. In about 40 years, millions of jobs were created in the US alone. The value added by their contributions to the economy is probably immeasurable. The fact is, technology allows us to do things now we couldn't do 10 or 20 years ago.

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:

What really bugs me about employers is that they expect you to have experience and knowledge of their field... be it pharmaceuticals, finance, bio-tech.... Background is good, but specialization is for insects.
And once you're in one of these sectors, you're stuck with it! We are the slaves of the industry

It's not unreasonable for them to want it. If you look through my other posts, you'll see that I believe the local (meaning domestic US) IT field is moving towards more domestic domain application design which requires these skills. One of the biggest problems in IT is that engineers don't know how to communicate with project sponsors/customers.
Granted, companies do have unrealistic expectations of engineers today, but they are moving in the right direction.
Seems to me if lots of employers want this, maybe we should be changing to meet their needs, rather then expecting them to design jobs to our abilities.

--Mark

[Matt Sarney]

I'd have to agree with Mark on the point about industry specific knowledge. With so many prospective employee's out there, they might as well try to find someone with industry experience. The learning curve will be a lot shorter and the new employee may "hit the ground running" so to speak.
The actual industry experience is more valuable in some respects because anyone with a BS in CS should be able to pick up any language/technology fairly quickly.

[Vitor Belfort]

QUOTE]Seems to me if lots of employers want this, maybe we should be changing to meet their needs, rather then expecting them to design jobs to our abilities.
The problem is quite simple. Once you're on the job, of course you're going to learn about the company and what the company wants. That's what they hired you for... When they want poeple to have backgrounds in pharamcetuicals I sometimes wonder what do they reall need or mean?
I took biology and chemistry in school is that good enough?
Do they want me to know cell biology, molecular chemistry? You can do 1 million different things in a pharmaceutical company... Maybe you helped program their inventory system. Does that mean you have a background in pharmaceuticals?

[Frank Carver]

When they want poeple to have backgrounds in pharamcetuicals I sometimes wonder what do they reall need or mean?
Usually what this means is mainly that they want someone who will understand their jargon and abbreviations. Even if all you have done is program an inventory system for a pharmacuticals house, you will have been exposed to the way the rest of the people in the company communicate, and all those unwritten assumptions.
If I need to learn websphere or perl, I could buy a book or practice on my own. I don't know of many books to help understand how people think and talk in a particular industry.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Frank Carver:
If I need to learn websphere or perl, I could buy a book or practice on my own. I don't know of many books to help understand how people think and talk in a particular industry.

It's not that hard in finance (Wall St). There are plenty of books out there on stocks, bonds, options, derivatives, hedge funds, etc. Of course, it's looks better to have classes or experience, rather then just say "I've read books."
--Mark

[Michael Bronshteyn]

If I need to learn websphere or perl, I could buy a book or practice on my own. I don't know of many books to help understand how people think and talk in a particular industry.

Any industry has its own books. That is how people get educated. You can go to any local technical books store and get Chemistry, or Mechanisc book and get jargon.
Compare to IT field none of those fields change as fast. Therefore you will find that even older books are still relavant today. On the same note, people with 10 years experience there are actually experienced and not obsolete like in software industry.

[Jasper Vader]

network, stay positive, develop a goal of networking with a certain amount of helpful positive people each week.
simple advice but that is all i can think of right now that would/might be helpful. might not be all that enjoyable, especially if you are feeling a bit lacklustre about the whole thing.
\try going for work experience too, just for a time.
also, you could cold call companies with your resume, skill summary, reference from the contract work you did. dress smart, put on a smile, expect to get something out of each meeting you make an appointment for - at least aim to come away with two names of other people to contact either in the same or another company.
maybe even offer to develop a small information systme for a pharmaceutical company or a doctor's surgery/health clinic, depending on the field you might like to gain work in...but maybe that is going a little over the top?

[Derek Grey]

The demand for IT workers during the golden era was purely artificial... However the interest sparked in IT back then sent a lot of kids to college and got them hoping big.

In the late 80's and early 90's we had the same problem with MBAs too...there was this "Gordon Gecko" image and ofcourse high paying jobs which inspired many kids to take up a program in BBA/MBA's....then again the economy went down and their degree's seemed worthless. But back in the boom time they were in hot demand. So that point is that as Mark says...when the economy is good every and any profession create jobs in the market ...and in situations like today they don't.
-ST

[Vitor Belfort]

Thanks for the replies guys, it's sometimes hard to make sense of everything from such a limited perspective (as I am just entering the field)... good to hear from the veterans... Fortunately you veterans survive the IT blitzkreig but I'm stuck in the front line
Mark, you correctly pointed out that the industries that we, the IT workers serve, are less dynamic than our own and jargon can be picked up quite easily. If I were the hiring manager I'd hire the best programmer with no experience in my field rather than the good programmer with some experience in my field. But that's just me and I'll never be a hiring manager.
It still strikes me as rather strange that an inferior programmer might get the job just because he's familiar with some jargon you can pick up anyways...
As for the IT trends of right now, yes we're on the down side... But I think that everything has finally fallen into place and there is a very definite role for IT within the economy... No more illusions on the part of investors or CEO's and companies will be more realistic about profit margins and expansions even after the rebound... That's why I believe we will experience a very cautious rebound, rather than an all-out "re-hire and expand, good times have come" mentality
Judging by the normal length of the business cycle we should be out of this recession by 2006-2007 if i'm not mistaken. And that seems like a life time to me... All this "recovery around the corner" talk just doesn't seem believable given all the turbulances we are encountering. In some ways war may act a stimulus, forcing government spending to some extent... Heck Lockheed Martin is hiring like crazy
I do have an interview tuesday and I'll see what comes of it... Regular interviews have a way of validating your search efforts like nothing else...

[Joey Kane]

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
. In some ways war may act a stimulus, forcing government spending to some extent... Heck Lockheed Martin is hiring like crazy
I do have an interview tuesday and I'll see what comes of it... Regular interviews have a way of validating your search efforts like nothing else...

Hey, I was just curious how your interview went, was it with Lockheed Martin? I also have an interview with them next week, so I was just curious if you could give me some advice on what to expect. Thanks.

[Vitor Belfort]

Hey, I was just curious how your interview went, was it with Lockheed Martin? I also have an interview with them next week, so I was just curious if you could give me some advice on what to expect. Thanks.

My interview wasn't with Lokheed unfortunately. But the company gave me a technical java interview. Actually 3 of them. One in java another one in jsp and servlets. A lot of employers seem to give out very intricate techical tests. I got 95, 70,70 on them respectively. After all those certs do help you out...
Best of luck with your interview. Have fun with working on smart bomb algorithms