Looking for java developers!!!!!! URGENT!!! In Japan

[Hideaki Takashima]

I am currently looking for java developers with at least 2 year working experience. However, the Japanese laguage skill will be needed because the working place will be somewhere in Japan. The salary will be around 10 US dollars per hour, but I can negotiate with the payment and I might be able to provide the housing!!! Now in Japan, we have a strong demand for experienced java developers. If you are interested in working in Japan as a java developer, please send me email with your resume.
The following is the email address!!!

[SJ Adnams]

$10/hour in Japan? I can earn more flippin burgers!
Even on $100/hour Japan is an expensive place to live.

[Anonymous]

(Madusudana Rao Kanikanti)
[ April 18, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Matt Cao]

Hello,
Is the resume you posted in standard protocol of India? It seems longing for something.

Cheers,
MCao

[Anonymous]

You should not post your personal details, like passport number, name and address everything. your identity can be misused ...

[Michael Morris]

Throw in a lifetime supply of Sushimi and I'll consider it.

[Jamie Robertson]

you couldn't live on $10 US an hour in Japan. It's about $7 US for a cup of coffee when my wife was there. There goes 2 hours of pay right off the top!
Anyways, I don't think this is close to being a reasonable offer, maybe one of our Japanese lurkers can shed some light on the current cost of living in Japan.
Jamie

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
Who know you may ends up working for Japanese mafia? Would that be great for your resume --it's not a job -- it's an adventure?
Regards,
MCao

[Bhushan Jawle]

I agree the offer is far from reasonable....

[John Smith]

Post content eliminated: replies should be to the job poster.
[ April 19, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Finney ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Surendra>:
You should not post your personal details, like passport number, name and address everything. your identity can be misused ...

I deleted the post because it is a really silly thing to post that kind of information here. Send your resume to the recruiter.

[Michael Morris]

I deleted the post

And I was hoping he would post his sexual orientation and religion.

[John Lee]

Actually, $10 per hour is not too bad. I heard it is $10 Canadian per hour in Toronto, w/o housing.
Nevertheless, this is anything but normal.

[Mathew Kuruvilla]

$10 for Java Programming in Toronto is ridiculous.
Jobs are hard to come by, but those who are working are paid much more than that.

[Jamie Robertson]

Originally posted by Don Liu:
Actually, $10 per hour is not too bad. I heard it is $10 Canadian per hour in Toronto, w/o housing.
Nevertheless, this is anything but normal.

There are a lot of excellent companies in Toronto that pay top notch salaries.
The Facts ( taken from monster.ca ):
A typical Programmer I working in Toronto earns a median base salary of $42,650, according to our analysis of data reported by corporate HR departments. The national average is $38,193.
A typical Software Engineer I working in Toronto earns a median base salary of $54,118, according to our analysis of data reported by corporate HR departments. The national average is $48,462.
Job Definitions:
"Programmer I:
Reviews, analyzes, and modifies programming systems including encoding, testing, debugging and documenting programs. May require an associate's degree in a related area and 0-3 years of experience in the field or in a related area. Has knowledge of commonly-used concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field. Relies on instructions and pre-established guidelines to perform the functions of the job. Works under immediate supervision. Primary job functions do not typically require exercising independent judgment. Typically reports to a project leader or manager. "

"Software Engineer I:
Designs, modifies, develops, writes and implements software programming applications. Supports and/or installs software applications. Participates in the testing process through test review and analysis, test witnessing and certification of software. Requires a bachelor's degree in a related area and 0-3 years of experience in the field or in a related area. Has knowledge of commonly-used concepts, practices, and procedures within a particular field. Relies on instructions and pre-established guidelines to perform the functions of the job. Works under immediate supervision. Primary job functions do not typically require exercising independent judgment. Typically reports to a manager. "
You can find more at www.monster.ca

[Darryl A. J. Staflund]

Wow,
I am surprised by the Toronto numbers as they sound quite low to me. In Western Canada (well, in Alberta anyway, not necessarily BC) the average wage of most employeed developers I have talked to is quite a bit higher and consultants make quite a bit more. Prices offered for jobs currently available in the area can be found at http://www.sisystems.com/. There's not a large Java demand at the moment but the prices are representative of the area.
Darryl
PS: $10 / hour is a HORRIBLE rate. To put it in perspective, minimum wage in most parts of Canada is about $7.50 / hour. Most University students can make $10 / hour painting in the summer -- even more if they plant trees :-)
[ April 24, 2003: Message edited by: Darryl A. J. Staflund ]

[Jamie Robertson]

Au contraire mon frere!
Calgary - Programmer I --> $39,508
Calgary - Software Engineer I --> $50,132
Edmonton - Programmer I --> $37,080
Edmonton - Sofware Engineer I --> $47,050
According to the same statistical methods as my previous post, the West is not best! Also, note that these are BASE salaries excluding bonuses and benefits. From what I understand, these are also full-time salaried positions which you get paid a little less for a lot more stability!
Jamie

[Darryl A. J. Staflund]

Hi again,
** finger-combs his goatee while pondering a response **
I don't know how to respond. No one I know in the industry here in Alberta works for those rates. The average full-time job is about 55-60K+ / annum whereas consultant rates go for about $40-$65 / hour. Having just finished a stint with a major telecommunications industry here in Alberta it's my experience that the downturn in work last year hit Ontario and Vancouver pretty hard but only hit Alberta to a lesser extent -- to a large extent due to the fact that a lot of Alberta's economy is driven by Oil resources. In fact, most of the consultants I worked with toward the end of my telecommunications contract had come from Ontario and Vancouver because of the sluggish economy in those areas.
I'll have to study the Monster stats I guess. They just don't seem to reflect my experience of the job market in my area but I'll ask around and see what I can find.
Darryl

[John Lee]

Hi:
I have nothing against Toronto, I hope the Toronto rate is a joke. But, right here in Javaranch, some people are looking for vulunteer position, some people are offering $10 per hour job. So there is supply, there is demand.

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
I think 10$/hr Java Developer volunteer or not is OK for high school kid, who happens to have a craving for Java language since the day he/she was born.
If one agrees reasonable pay-rate does not mean anything, only market supply and demand is all matter. Then I bet that he is the one seeing someone falls down and hurt, instead of run over to check the person stat before calling for professional help. He check the injured person wallet/purse for credit cards or cash and stuffs them in his pocket.
Cheers,
MCao

[John Lee]

Hi:
$10 per hour is not reasonable. There ought to be better ways. If you have some savings, then keep skill set updated, go back to school, change career, get career training, keep job hunting, do some networking, .... these are all alternative choices.
Regards,

[Gary McGath]

Let's not forget that Java programmers aren't entitled to high pay rates any more than burger flippers are; if we get them, it's because there's a better market for us. "Reasonable pay" has no meaning except whether someone can reasonably expect competent people to accept it.
Bottom fishers generally don't get their money's worth, since they seldom can attract competent people, but they do serve a function by measuring the limits of the job market. An company that doesn't hire any software developers because it can't afford to pay $100K a year isn't helping either itself or the out-of-work developers.

[SJ Adnams]

yes we are - cost of entry.
burger flippers don't even need to be literate.
A 'typical' programmer should have a degree few years experience and maybe a cert or 2.
A typical doctor more so.
Dunno about lawyers, but they prolly need to do just as much study as doctors.
If everyone is 'entitled' to the same rate of pay I would have quit school at 16 & be picking grapes for a living.

[John Lee]

Applying for job is supposed to be a supply-demand relation. I would not worry about Java programmer paid lower than flipping burger, because this will not last.
No java programmer would like to stay in a $10 per hour position for long. So a $10 per hour job's real value lies in that it opens up the opportunity. That is why some people even want to work for free. And trust me, the day will come, when java programmer pays to code in java.

[Darryl A. J. Staflund]

Hi there,
One question to consider when looking at accepting a job opportunity is whether the salary offered is 'sustainable' in the sense that it allows you to pay the bills, avoid debt, meet responsibilities, train for the future, and put away for your goals. Again, when I look at $10 / hour the rate isn't sustainable in this sense. It might be a good summer-type job for the student who can live with friends or family during the school year but a developer who looks to their skillset to furnish them with a satisfying career and to support a home, continuing education, family, retirement couldn't do it at this rate. Nor, if they were incorporated could they come near to meeting their business costs.
Darryl
[ April 25, 2003: Message edited by: Darryl A. J. Staflund ]

[Jamie Robertson]

back to the monster.ca rates...remember they are salaries for programmers with 0 - 3 years experience ( basically their first job ) and it includes all programmers ( VB, java, C++, Delphi...etc). You'll also find that the job categories are very narrow in scope. So when you think of programmer I, that does not include Applications Systems Analyst, Business Systems Analyst, Client Server Programmer, DBA's, Operating Systems programmer, Project Leads, etc. I don't think that these salaries are far off from a programmer's first job ( full-time position, not contract ).
maybe I just have my head in the sand!
Jamie

[Gary McGath]

"Cost of entry" doesn't entitle a person to a job, much less a minimum pay level. You could have spent a fortune studying the art of Y2K fixes; that doesn't mean you can expect to find a job doing it today. Times are rough, and those who approach the job market thinking they're entitled to the kind of work they'd most like, at the pay rate which they'd prefer, are going to be severely disappointed. Sometimes you have to work in the quarry for a while.

[John Lee]

Originally posted by Gary McGath:
"Cost of entry" doesn't entitle a person to a job, much less a minimum pay level. You could have spent a fortune studying the art of Y2K fixes; that doesn't mean you can expect to find a job doing it today.

You are right. Never count on y3k or y10k. But for a new graduate, working on a y2k project at least can gain some industry project experience.

[SJ Adnams]

In the short run pay rates should be 'supply demand'. In the long run it will be 'cost of entry'.
Agreed this only makes any sense for liquid markets (I would describe 2 million java programmers as liquid). If there are only 1 million jobs then 'supply demand' will ensure that 1 million (dead wood) people are forced to switch jobs, leaving the remaining 1 million to enjoy to 'cost of entry' salary.
Obviously Y2K bugfixes is not a liquid skill.

[Michael Finney]

Posts should be directed to the job poster and for the purpose of soliciting more information about the position.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Simon Lee:
yes we are - cost of entry.
burger flippers don't even need to be literate.
A 'typical' programmer should have a degree few years experience and maybe a cert or 2.

Well, firts let's remember that no one is entitled to anything. Now if you wnat to argue that the economics justifies an amount, that's different. Last time I checked the cost of entry was a few thousand dollars. Considering that teachers have a higher cost of entry, we're in trouble in the current situation.
How did I come up with that number? The cost of taking a few night classes, reading some books, doing toy projects, and getting certifications is a few thousand dollars. That's roughly the low end of the spectrum. On the high end are people who spend $100,000+ for brand name university degrees.
Now personally, I think people who take a 20 week Java class and get a few certifications, by and large, are not very strong programmers. However, most HR dept's can't easily distinguish between them and someone who has a BS from an anonymous college. Even if they see a raw differential in talent, the picture gets blurred by the different salaries, so that to the employer, a $35k developer with no CS degree is more attractive then a $55k developer with a CS degree. Is this the right view? Not in my opinion, but for now there are enough people making that decision to hold down the market. So long as such people are indistinguishable, you're looking at the lowest cost of entry.
--Mark
PS The cost of entry to be a science or engineering professor at a good school is quite high: top university BS, top university PhD, post doc, publications, a solid 10 years of your life. And yet salaries are quite low. At MIT for example, they start out around $80k I think, and have roughly a 1-3 chance of getting tenure. So why do they do it? Because some people place a premium on working in academia. There are many people in our profession who simply enjoy programming and would be willing to take a lower paying programming job then a slightly higher paying alternative.

[Fred Grott]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Well, firts let's remember that no one is entitled to anything. Now if you wnat to argue that the economics justifies an amount, that's different. Last time I checked the cost of entry was a few thousand dollars. Considering that teachers have a higher cost of entry, we're in trouble in the current situation.
How did I come up with that number? The cost of taking a few night classes, reading some books, doing toy projects, and getting certifications is a few thousand dollars. That's roughly the low end of the spectrum. On the high end are people who spend $100,000+ for brand name university degrees.
Now personally, I think people who take a 20 week Java class and get a few certifications, by and large, are not very strong programmers. However, most HR dept's can't easily distinguish between them and someone who has a BS from an anonymous college. Even if they see a raw differential in talent, the picture gets blurred by the different salaries, so that to the employer, a $35k developer with no CS degree is more attractive then a $55k developer with a CS degree. Is this the right view? Not in my opinion, but for now there are enough people making that decision to hold down the market. So long as such people are indistinguishable, you're looking at the lowest cost of entry.
--Mark
PS The cost of entry to be a science or engineering professor at a good school is quite high: top university BS, top university PhD, post doc, publications, a solid 10 years of your life. And yet salaries are quite low. At MIT for example, they start out around $80k I think, and have roughly a 1-3 chance of getting tenure. So why do they do it? Because some people place a premium on working in academia. There are many people in our profession who simply enjoy programming and would be willing to take a lower paying programming job then a slightly higher paying alternative.

I find the real difference is in comaring BS degrees from colleges tha tdo not rewuire a thesis or senoir porjec tin their majors and ones that do..simply because althoguh you have the foudnation of programming skills and tools the whole package needs sharpened and honed much like a knife blade..
I think some of the firgure of our orginila poster i sbased on some companies in Japan offering free housing to workers that require such as programmers, engineers, and etc..so while $10,000 yearly doesnt soudn much adding Japan housing to that might make it at $65,000 range..

[John Lee]

i alos find it unclear about the housing, what kind? 6 persons share a 20 square meter room? or studio for everybody?
overall, i feel the whole ad is not real.

[Cindy Glass]

Since this has digressed into a Jobs Discussion, we are moving the topic to that forum.

[shay Aluko]

Originally posted by Hideaki Takashima:
I am currently looking for java developers with at least 2 year working experience. However, the Japanese laguage skill will be needed because the working place will be somewhere in Japan. The salary will be around 10 US dollars per hour, but I can negotiate with the payment and I might be able to provide the housing!!! Now in Japan, we have a strong demand for experienced java developers. If you are interested in working in Japan as a java developer, please send me email with your resume.
The following is the email address!!!

I am not sure this is a serious requirement-- it seems just like a troll on this board

[Steven Broadbent]

Compare with English teacher who only needs a one month cert and degree to teach in japan who will earn 250,000 yen a month for 25-30 hours.
The money offered for 2 years java is a joke.
Should this we let this forum be used for what amounts to slave labour request?

[Steven Broadbent]

BTW 250,000 yen = 2100 dollars.
Enough said I think....

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
Could that be Japanese culture respect teacher more than writer or in this case digital language writer? Maybe that's all the Japanese market could afford nowaday? I hear salary men now go fishing which their fathers tried hard to push them into the corporate worlds to escape the back breaking trade.
Regards,
MCao