SCJP 1.4
The secret of how to be miserable is to constantly expect things are going to happen the way that they are "supposed" to happen.
You can have faith, which carries the understanding that you may be disappointed. Then there's being a willfully-blind idiot, which virtually guarantees it.
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
Note also that 5 years DB2 experience cannot be used for credit if the employer wants 5 years Oracle. Or vice versa.
But the REALLY depressing thing is when you visit their websites and the $#@#$# things are done so sloppy!
Originally posted by Svetlana Koshkina:
About certs I'd agree that many people have really no other way (as me, for ex.) to get foot into the door.
Mark Herschberg, author of The Career Toolkit
https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com/
Originally posted by Sam Kebab:
Yeah but are there not 3,000,000 developers in the world.
Mark Herschberg, author of The Career Toolkit
https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com/
BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
For someone with more than 10 years experience, i am not sure a java developer position would be the best way to go. Why not showcase your leadership abilities and market yourself as a project manager?.Getting the PMP certification might help. As contrasted to Java certs, the PMP is universal, project management is the same whether you are building bridges or software. Just my $0.02
Make visible what, without you, might perhaps never have been seen.
- Robert Bresson
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
Hello,
I go with Shay on this. At this level you should aim for management level or at least see the manager's view.
For the fresh meat, my logic goes like this if something new and you have it, you have an edge. If something are not new and you have it, you are a follower, likely to be used and likely to be toss aside when done.
Regards,
MCao
BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
The secret of how to be miserable is to constantly expect things are going to happen the way that they are "supposed" to happen.
You can have faith, which carries the understanding that you may be disappointed. Then there's being a willfully-blind idiot, which virtually guarantees it.
Time is an excellent teacher; but eventually it kills all its students. <br /> <br />Alexandre Mottin Ferras<br />SCJP 1.5 <br />SCJP 1.4<br />SCWCD 1.3<br />SCBCD<br />IBM Object-Oriented Analysis and Design with UML
Originally posted by Stephen Cowell:
I wanted to share my story as a cautionary tale to others going for certs. I have all 4 Java certs, along with an IT Masters and 13 years IT experience. In 4 months of searching I have had not a single client interview for a Java job. It appears that Java certs barely get me into the office of an agent. Because there are so many experienced Java programmers out of work at the moment, if you have Java certs and no commercial Java experience it appears you're wasting your time.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
<b>Donald Nunn</b><br />Sun Certified Programmer for the Java 2 Platform
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
We all know that they key to getting an interview is to have your resume stand out. How many people have certs?* More importantly, what fraction of the people applying for this job will have certs? Are you really going to stand out by having a certification?
I know there are some comapnies which require it (although they still seem to be very few), but even then, it's certainly not going to make you stand out.
The point is, whatever benefits you may consider certs to have, signalling rarity is not one of them.
--Mark
*I've asked Sun for this information, and they keep saying they'll get back to me.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
I partially disagree, Mark. The key to getting interviews is not having your CV/resume stand out. The key is getting attention in some manner! A standout CV can help get attention. But really it's being a standout candidate which is the key.
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
The problem with certifications is that many people try to use them as a single-source 'silver-bullet' answer to all their skills problems. They simply don't WORK that way. As Fred Brooks wrote in a famous essay, there Is no Silver Bullet!
Well, I think it's mostly semantics. Good things on your CV helps you stand out. A link to your very cool website, i would argue is part of your CV. If my book does well, hopefully that will make me stand out. I was considering saying something like "XXX copies sold" part of the CV event though the book is clearly external to the CV. Likewise a phonecall which makes the hiring manager actually look through the pile makes your resume stand out--even though the phone call is external to the CV. In any case, I think we're basically saying the same thing.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
The memorization part of certifications may be BS as far as actually doing the job, but what it CAN do is help you ace the tests they make you take. And ace (part) of the technical interview.
Is there anyone currently involved in hiring who can shed more light on this? What have you seen?
And those with a whole slew of certs to their name were considered uber-geeks who needed to get a life and couldn't possibly be expected to interact with humans in any meaningful way.
Originally posted by Donald Nunn
Maybe you should look into .Net and C#. I made the move over a year ago and it's been sweet every since. I was one of those guys with 17 years of IT experience and a BS in CS, and a MS in Software Engineering and I attempted for a long time to move into the Java world and it never happened.
SCJP 1.4
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
It can only do this inasmuch as their tests and technical interview mimic the cert test. What first alerted me to the trouble with certs is that candidates I interviewed couldn't answer the important questions. The could only regurgitate information from the test, but I didn't consider that sufficent for a hire.
--Mark
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
That is a terribly narrow-minded view to take. If you treat it as a piece of paper that is all it will be. But I know some who take the trouble to read books relevant to the subject and take trouble over producing quality work to get their certificate. As Alfred says, it is up to the cert holder to sell themselves, or the process of learning. The fact that there are so many cert holders is neither here no there. You still need to work for that extra Ooomph to get you spotted. If you see yourself as a walking piece of talent with a couple of certs, you should be laughing.
There are jobs out there. Just don't expect the cert, the piece of paper to sell itself. Networking is the important thing.
regards
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
That is a terribly narrow-minded view to take. If you treat it as a piece of paper that is all it will be. But I know some who take the trouble to read books relevant to the subject and take trouble over producing quality work to get their certificate. As Alfred says, it is up to the cert holder to sell themselves, or the process of learning. The fact that there are so many cert holders is neither here no there. You still need to work for that extra Ooomph to get you spotted. If you see yourself as a walking piece of talent with a couple of certs, you should be laughing.
There are jobs out there. Just don't expect the cert, the piece of paper to sell itself. Networking is the important thing.
regards
Thanks, leo
posted by leo donahue :
I had an employer once tell me that programming is merely a lesson in typing and that anyone should be able to program in a matter of minutes, if you can think logically (translation: if you can think the way they are thinking)
For what do we go to College--information or atmosphere? At first, one is inclined to say information, but thoughtful teachers usually concede that atmosphere is more important, because atmosphere instills principles, ideals, friendships, high standards, which cannot elsewhere be got, whereas information can be dug out of books.
A similar remark applies to camp life. Summer camps are virtually summer colleges. One may learn there to swim, to paddle, to know the trees, but one is a larger gainer if one get good methods and traditions that will serve through life.
As I have studied the work and studied the camps, I am impressed by the fact that not a little of the formative, helpful atmosphere is created in camp by little customs. A hundred things which in themselves seem unimportant, are the breeders of the subtle something that we call atmosphere.
posted by Alfred Neumann:
There are lots of skills which will never be even remotely measured by any certification. I'm coming to the POV lately that knowing Ant/XDoclet/JUnit and related open source tools is going to make one a more effective developer than anything currently covered by a certification today. There are other lacunae even within subjects well-covered covered by certification exams.
Value of Little Customs
Organisations may also start looking to build that kind of Values-breeding atmosphere. It will certainly benefit Big Multi-National Companies worldwide as well as small ones..
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Well, obviously I'm no fan of certs. I agree with you bear. My tendancy is that certs are a bad sign. However, I try not to hold it against people, since I've seen many smart people (good programmers) who aren't good at career management.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
One can either rail at fate or adjust to the world as it is. I chose to do the latter.
Or remake the rules. I use this as a reverse filter. If the company doesn't know how to conduct a good interview, i.e. if they can only/primarily evaluate based on certs rather then reading resumes and interactions, then it's probably not a company I want to work for.
--Mark
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
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