Read this?

[Amit Agrawal]

Seems like an emotional war is out there..
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/380

[Al Newman]

I don't completely agree with her POV, but largely do. It seems to me that H1B's and (particularly) green card engineers are an asset to the US, not a liability. And I think the lowered yearly limit on H1B is appropriate. Allowing Indian engineers into the US is an alternative to outsourcing, and in my experience pay rates for these people are close to those for US engineers.

As a developer, I�ve worked for a company that thought it was just the greatest idea to hire half of our development team from an Indian outsourcing company. The PR on the Indian developers was that they were fully qualified and were less than half the price of some of the members of our engineering team. Sure sounded like a plan. Well in reality it was, and continues to be, a terrible idea. The �fully qualified� engineering team was not even close to qualified. They not only completely screwed up the code base, but they cost us more work in the end to fix their mess. Then there was the 2-day turn around per incident because of the time differences between them and us. Every little thing was an email, wait a day, another email, and wait a day. Things that should have taken minutes to resolve took days. It was a complete fiasco. When the emails just ended being a waste of time, we had to schedule conference calls at all hours of the night, again to take the time differences in the locations into account.

Here she is completely correct. A decade ago there was a similar debate. A company I worked at brought in an Indian sys admin team at less than half the cost as their existing team. I'm afraid my perception was that the Indians were also less than half as competent. Senior SE's (like myself) were obliged to solve problems which the previous SA team had handled before, with resulting impact to development schedules. Heavy impact.
With the massive recent expansion of the major Indian outsourcing companies, I expect many less qualified staff have been hired recently. This is going to have a negative impact on the quality of their product.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[Ashok Mash]

An extremely selfish and confused blobber! :roll:

[R K Singh]

A decade ago there was a similar debate. A company I worked at brought in an Indian sys admin team at less than half the cost as their existing team. I'm afraid my perception was that the Indians were also less than half as competent. Senior SE's (like myself) were obliged to solve problems which the previous SA team had handled before, with resulting impact to development schedules. Heavy impact.
I beg to differ, I think, it was the problem of that company's "Human Resource Recruiting" department which could not recruit the correct person. [The SA, you are talking about could have been a US citizen also and could have given shocks too.]
With the massive recent expansion of the major Indian outsourcing companies, I expect many less qualified staff have been hired recently. This is going to have a negative impact on the quality of their product.
I think recruiting process is tough enough here to get the best of all applications.
And if you read the whole blog and the links given there. I think, that left Sue and the people who agree with her speechless.
Why only blame to outsourcing ?? Outsorcing is like, you are in open market and you are looking for best value for your money. Anyone who will provide best value for your money, you will buy that product only.
Can we blame outsourcing for unemployement in manufacturing units also ??
In my simple thought, outsourcing is nothing but a getting best at cheapest cost.
And now there is competetion also very high with entry of Russia, China and other south asian countries too.
The job done in US @ $4000/-
same job in India is $700/-
and in China it is $500/-
And regarding quality of work, in this competetive age, no company will repeat order/project if the end product lacks quality.

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

A decade ago there was a similar debate. A company I worked at brought in an Indian sys admin team at less than half the cost as their existing team. I'm afraid my perception was that the Indians were also less than half as competent. Senior SE's (like myself) were obliged to solve problems which the previous SA team had handled before, with resulting impact to development schedules. Heavy impact.

Well, I have seen many Americans and Britsh people who are half as competent than me and maybe double my price. I dont see what your point is ? There are competent and non-competent people all around. If the companies who hire them , dont take a thorough interview before taking them in, they deserve what they get. I have seen both instances in my previous projects. I have worked for a Bank which had a very tough Interview process and all the people working in the project (including a few Indians on a work permit ) were VERY GOOD and everyone knew what they were doing. On the other hand, I have worked in a Telco which took an interview from contractors as just a formality and they trusted the Suppliers totally who screwed them by sending people who sometimes had no clue abt the software in question.
Point is , If you have seen a few H1Bs who were not very competent , I have seen many locals who are the same. You cant blame them or the H1 process. The blame has to lie with the companies who recruit them without making sure that they fit the role.
My 2 Pence.
This is a pretty touchy topic and I am sure this has been discussed on this board sometime ago.
Tintin

[HS Thomas]

There are competent and non-competent people all around. If the companies who hire them , don't take a thorough interview before taking them in, they deserve what they get.

This is true. The interview is usually conducted by the project's best.As the (usually two ) people can't be spread thinly, they delegate the selection process to lesser types , and this may be the back door letting incompetents in. And also , when estimating project requirements , the required number of "bums on seats" ( a legitimate technical term) and that's usually where those bums remain - on their seats.
Unfortunately I've been on a project where the best left once they realised that the project was driven by something other than technical excellence.Their sheer brilliance just wasn't appreciated by the projects "wants".
regards

[Arjun Shastry]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:

With the massive recent expansion of the major Indian outsourcing companies, I expect many less qualified staff have been hired recently. This is going to have a negative impact on the quality of their product.

I think expansion is not as massive as displayed by media.and companies generally select qualified people(not necesarrily brilliant!)from a pool of resumes.Also cost factor gives advantage.Companies can hire 2 to 3 people for one position.Many companies have done this in the past and they do it.

[Joe Pluta]

I'm not going to get into this discussion in any great degree; it's a hgue time drain and emotionally very heavy. Let me just point out a couple of things:
1. There is a difference between outsourcing and the H- and L- visa programs. Both are detrimental to US wages, but at least outsourcing fits the traditional model of doing something cheaper. Visas, on the other hand, allow companies to displace American workers from American jobs on American equipment with lower-cost foreign workers. These "visa companies" (and make no mistake - there is an entire industry geared toward getting visas for offshore labor) are in effect simply dealing in people, a chattel labor market.
2. Please read the facts on the number of jobs already lost to visas, and the number expected. Last I looked, some 300,000 jobs were gone, with that number expected to rise to over a million in the not too distant future. Just as one measure, let's see what that does to the tax base. Let's say you whack a $75,000 job and now that person is working at McDonald's. At this point you've knocked some $20,000 dollars off the federal tax base. Do this to a million workers and you're dropping the tax base $20 billion.
That's all I want to add. I've written about this enough.
Joe

[A. Levi]

Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
I don;t completely agree with her POV, but largely do. It seems to me that H1B's and (particularly) green card engineers are an asset to the US, not a liability. And I think the lowered yearly limit on H1B is appropriate. Allowing Indian engineers into the US is an alternative to outsourcing, and in my experience pay rates for these people are close to those for US engineers.

Here she is completely correct. A decade ago there was a similar debate. A company I worked at brought in an Indian sys admin team at less than half the cost as their existing team. I'm afraid my perception was that the Indians were also less than half as competent. Senior SE's (like myself) were obliged to solve problems which the previous SA team had handled before, with resulting impact to development schedules. Heavy impact.
With the massive recent expansion of the major Indian outsourcing companies, I expect many less qualified staff have been hired recently. This is going to have a negative impact on the quality of their product.

Dude, I dont care. that bi@&% is a hypocrite. She co-authored the book 'Professional Java Server Programming J2Ee 1.4 Edition' with an indian and i do not understand her point. Why the hell she has to mention an Indian, she couldn't hold her horses and she is a racist bi@&%. she could have taken chinese (who also are a large part of H1 next to indians). well nah she has to hit below the belt. Oh well, every frigging european, british, portugese, french, spanish etc ruled and robbed indians for 200+ years and again they immigrated to US of A and robbed native indians their lands. Talking of hyprocy some people are the best at it.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Levi Allam ]

[Joe Pluta]

This is Meaningless Drivel, not Obscene Flames, right?

[A. Levi]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
This is Meaningless Drivel, not Obscene Flames, right?

well, duh, some one started them and I am just adding fuel to it.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:
Oh well, every frigging european, british, portugese, french, spanish etc ruled and robbed indians for 200+ years and again they immigrated to US of A and robbed native indians their lands talking of hyprocy white people are the best at it .

Normally I would just delete this... Please keep your racist comments to yourself, and away from this forum. You are relatively new here so just let me point out that unlike other online communities you may be familiar with, we don't generally practice this level of discussion here and prefer to keep things relatively civil.
I would direct you to the Meaningless Drivel document linked at the top of this forum. In particular let me highlight the following section:

Remember that there are over a dozen moderators for this forum: the listed moderators, plus all of the sheriffs. Any post that is found to be inappropriate to just one of them will be deleted. So when you write a message, you will want to make sure that it will not be found to be inappropriate by any of them.
If you write a long message that contains one small bit of inappropriateness, the entire message may be deleted. The moderator that deleted it will probably not e-mail you or notify you in any way. So if you have something important to say, you would be wise to choose your words carefully.
What sort of things do the moderators delete? Generally anything that sounds less than friendly. It is possible to express strong opinions in a way that will not be hurtful to others. It just takes a little more thought and time.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. Any similar outbursts will likely be deleted.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
At this point you've knocked some $20,000 dollars off the federal tax base. Do this to a million workers and you're dropping the tax base $20 billion.

It is really sad that local people lose their jobs for cheap labour.
But if basic point is tax base, please clear me, in my little knowledge H1 holder pays tax in US also and US also earn money by processing fees of visa
I think key point will be constructive way of stoping low wage labour by making it mandatory for all companies to give same wages to all workers [regardless whether they are on H1/L1/US citizen].
In this way they dont have to abolish any visa program and at the same time great minds will be able work together for better world.

[A. Levi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Thank you for your attention to this matter. Any similar outbursts will likely be deleted.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

sorry i aint a racist. But when u see one, it will boil your blood. You dont know the feeling of being discriminated on a frigging regular basis. I would NOT have normally posted my above comments untill that dude started agreeing with sue. Her comments are pretty racist. Now if some one on the other websites post racist comments and folks over here start agreeing with them, you obviously do not see that one and jumped on to delete my posts as I have posted 'WHITE' comments. I regret posting it. To confirm i am not racist, my girl is white (italian,french,latino).
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Levi Allam ]
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Levi Allam ]

[John Smith]

But if basic point is tax base, please clear me, in my little knowledge H1 holder pays tax in US also
Yes, but the tax from a $75K income is higher than that from a $30K income. Not that I object to visa holders working in the US. On the contrary, -- it forces a competition.
On the other hand, I see nothing racist whatsoever in the article in question, -- she brings in valid points. If the project is being managed and developed in two different countries, this by itself is a recepie for disaster. Remember the XP principle, "BA on the same floor with developers"?
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
But if basic point is tax base, please clear me, in my little knowledge H1 holder pays tax in US also and US also earn money by processing fees of visa.

They get paid much less, and so contribute much less. Also, there has been a significant push by the biggest Indian visa abusers to rescind the social security tax, thereby reducing our social security pool as well.
I think key point will be constructive way of stoping low wage labour by making it mandatory for all companies to give same wages to all workers [regardless whether they are on H1/L1/US citizen].
The issue is that more and more Americans are saying that they don't want foreign workers on American soil doing American jobs while qualified Americans are out of work. Period. Outsourcing is a different issue, but in the minds of many Americans, especially in the IT industry, the H- and L- visas are simply stealing food directly from the mouths of American workers. And that is not an understatement. People are losing their houses, their college funds, their health insurance and even the ability to pay monthly bills.
My belief is that there will be some interesting results in upcoming elections. Remember that a low number of Americans traditionaly turn out to vote. If you take the votes of 300,000 or more workers who have been displaced, that's more than enough votes to change the outcome of most of the state and federal elections in recent American history. (Heck, 500 votes in Florida and we would have a different President.)
In this way they dont have to abolish any visa program and at the same time great minds will be able work together for better world.
Hey, with the Internet, we can work together just fine, no matter where you live. You aren't worried about working together, you want an equal standard of living worldwide, gained primarily by lessening the standard of living of American citizens. That's going to be a hard sell here in the States.
Anyway, like I said, this conversation takes way too long, and it's ultimately fruitless. You want me to say it's a good idea that someone from India, China or Korea works on American soil on American equipment, trained by an American worker that he displaces and who subsequently loses their career, all in the name of global equality.
Ain't gonna happen.
Joe

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

You want me to say it's a good idea that someone from India, China or Korea works on American soil on American equipment, trained by an American worker that he displaces and who subsequently loses their career, all in the name of global equality.
Ain't gonna happen.
Joe

Trained By American workers ??? Yeah Right. Few of my colleagues have to go to the US to give special workshops/training sessions on some very simple stuff.So lets keep "Who is more competent" discussion away from this discussion.
You have our sympathies but as long as its legal and supported by the Government, there is no way the blame can be laid on the H1B workers.
Keep working on writing to your Senataors,etc and let us know what they think abt it. We will gladly go back if and when they pass some laws,etc.
Regards
Tintin

[Michael Ernest]

The more distasteful comments I have read in this forum seem driven by anxiety more so than racism. Those of you think "your jobs" are being taken by "those people," I might simply offer the truism "everyone likes a free market until they have to live in one."
It is a fact that many businesspeople view information technology personnel as a commodity, or rather would very much like to. Nothing is more evident in my line of work -- teaching to technical professionals -- where every week there is some discussion about the future of the job market.
You may not like having to compete for lower wages, but you really do like being able to buy a complete computer for $400. Citizens may not like the "flood" of apparent incompetence swarming US borders, but shareholders like the lower cost and business likes the increased profit margin. And they very much like a pool of resources eager to work for whatever.
I once wanted to hire a guy simply for saying in his interview, "I can speak English very clearly. If you give me a complex technical problem I'll explain it you in terms anyone can understand." Unfortunately I wasn't hiring technical support that day, but dammit if that guy didn't understood a very simple thing that not only separated him from the competition, he made me realize he was worth more.
You can all piss and moan about "your" jobs being taken from you, or you can figure out how to compete. Simple as that.

[Joe Pluta]

Tintin Herge: Keep working on writing to your Senataors,etc and let us know what they think abt it. We will gladly go back if and when they pass some laws,etc.
Okee dokee .
Hey, I'm not trying to get into an argument here. I understand your side of it. I'm just explaining the point of view here in the American IT industry. It's the majority position, Michael's sentiment notwithstanding. Personally, I have a feeling you will see some of these laws change as elected representatives start finding themselves looking for work. We'll see.
As to the training issue, there have been documented cases of American workers being forced to train their replacements lest they lose what little benefits they were entitled to when their job was taken over BY THE PERSON THEY TRAINED. I'm not using this as a comparison of relative talents, and at no point in my argument did I suggest that all foreign workers are unskilled, so please don't put words in my mouth.

Michael Ernest: You can all piss and moan about "your" jobs being taken from you, or you can figure out how to compete. Simple as that.
And how do you compete with someone willing to accept a standard of living one fourth of yours? Do you just tell your wife to forget about the house, and tell your kids that college is out of the question? Do you tell them that the American Dream is dead because corporations want to replace Dad with cheap labor from a developing country?
How do you compete with that? Be willing to work for $15/hour? Or exit the IT field completely and look for something that can actually pay the mortgage?
Joe

[Jason Menard]

There are simple solutions, although who knows if they will actually take place.
1) Remove the IT sector from the list of jobs that the H1-B visa applies to. The point of the H1-B visa was to allow companies to hire labor in very specific fields (such as some engineering fields) where there was an insufficient supply of local labor. This is no longer the case for IT so there is no reason an H1-B visa should be used in this matter at this time.
2) Apply tariffs to imported software and IT services. This is what we do in several other industries to level the playing field, so we may as well apply it to software as well. In this way a company is still allowed to seek the best solution for their needs whether foreign or domestic, while retaining sufficient jobs in order to maintain domestic software capabilities vital to our nation.
It is shortsighted to advocate the mass export of domestic software skills and to lump software development with industries such as clothing. Software development skills are vital to a nation's infrastructure and they are skills which once lost cannot be readily regenerated, unlike jobs such as those involved with the manufacture of clothing for example. This doesn't mean that some outsourcing cannot be done, only that we must retain a sufficient domestic capability which can only be had if there are enough jobs to make people want to bother learning software development skills in college. I believe that tariffs would solve this problem, and wouldn't be surprised to see them enacted some time in the future.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[A. Levi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
There are simple solutions, although who knows if they will actually take place.
1) Remove the IT sector from the list of jobs that the H1-B visa applies to. The point of the H1-B visa was to allow companies to hire labor in very specific fields (such as some engineering fields) where there was an insufficient supply of local labor. This is no longer the case for IT so there is no reason an H1-B visa should be used in this matter at this time.
2) Apply tariffs to imported software and IT services. This is what we do in several other industries to level the playing field, so we may as well apply it to software as well. In this way a company is still allowed to seek the best solution for their needs whether foreign or domestic, while retaining sufficient jobs in order to maintain domestic software capabilities vital to our nation.
It is shortsighted to advocate the mass export of domestic software skills and to lump software development with industries such as clothing. Software development skills are vital to a nation's infrastructure and they are skills which once lost cannot be readily regenerated, unlike jobs such as those involved with the manufacture of clothing for example. This doesn't mean that some outsourcing cannot be done, only that we must retain a sufficient domestic capability which can only be had if there are enough jobs to make people want to bother learning software development skills in college. I believe that tariffs would solve this problem, and wouldn't be surprised to see them enacted some time in the future.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

You are one lousy bartender who abuses the power and deletes people's messages. I dont like you.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
The more distasteful comments I have read in this forum seem driven by anxiety more so than racism. Those of you think "your jobs" are being taken by "those people," I might simply offer the truism "everyone likes a free market until they have to live in one."

The H1-B is not "free market". The H1-B program creates employees who are locked into their employers with threats of deportation hanging over them.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:
You are one lousy bartender who abuses the power and deletes people's messages. I dont like you.

Them's the hazards of bartending in MD I'm afraid. You were directed to the forum guidelines after making a previous post and you subsequently chose to ignore them. If you have any further complaints you wish to make I request you contact me by email if you so choose, the other moderator of this forum, Jim Yingst, or anybody else you would like to air your grievances to.
Regards,
Jason
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Randall Twede]

You can all piss and moan about "your" jobs being taken from you, or you can figure out how to compete. Simple as that.

ive pretty much decided to plan on being an independant consultant. its much more challenging anyway. but then again, if i graduate best in my class, maybe i wont have to worry at all

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:
You are one lousy bartender who abuses the power and deletes people's messages. I dont like you.

Actually, he is supposed to delete messages so he is a very good bartender. If you had bothered reading about this forum before posting ehre you woudl see that we have a very short fuse when it comes to certain types of posts. The owner of JavaRanch wants it that way.

[Kevin Arnold]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
It is shortsighted to advocate the mass export of domestic software skills and to lump software development with industries such as clothing. Software development skills are vital to a nation's infrastructure and they are skills which once lost cannot be readily regenerated, unlike jobs such as those involved with the manufacture of clothing for example.

I can live without software but I must have clothes. I would not like to run around naked.

[sunitha reghu]

Im very deeply offended Joe plutos comment. But Persons like him say whatever comments he likes coz moderators think that he is mild and for others they issue warning or just delete the post and if somebody oppose it they simply goa dn delete the post. .It seems that there is a misconception here. Everyone thinks that Indians only came here as H1-B . Its not the truth.
Secondly IT is not somebodys property. It is the joint effort of everyone people from all ove rthe world.
So you cant say �hey I developed it and now you coming here and getting the money out of it�. If there is any job for IT YOU have to think that it came up because of lot of people worked behind it including indains.
When there is a severe shortage of IT workers USA asked ppls frm other countries to come here. Now there is no more shoratge so blaming these poor folks. Noone took the job by any political influence or by fist. If some3one took the job it just because their skills set are above others or they performed well than other person. If any one think that these so-called �cheap� workers took somebody job they should complain the employer who employed the �cheap labor�. If your parents gave more family share to your brother will you fight with your brother or with your parents. Right now its clear that from Joe plutos comment he is fighting with his brother.
An indian IT worker working in India spends his money in buying nike shoes and eating pizza frm pizzhut. So at the final end who achieving by this. American or Indian.
Okay now there is a sever shortage of nurses here. So most of the experienced nurses are coming here by h1-b visa. It doesn�t make any sense to me saying that remove IT workers frm H1-B.
After reading all these sarcastic post from persons like Joe and others I strongly feel that I should change frm this career. This rat race is too much nowadays. �My Job, Your country, H1-B, CHEAP LABOR, offshoring, iraq, war� these are the common terms here.

[A. Levi]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Actually, he is supposed to delete messages so he is a very good bartender. If you had bothered reading about this forum before posting ehre you woudl see that we have a very short fuse when it comes to certain types of posts. The owner of JavaRanch wants it that way.

I understand that but thats a double standard when it comes to my posts its offensive and when it comes to others its not offensive. I guess i should not post anything that offends my american brotheren, but offending my indian brotheren should be ok. If you say that javaranch owner wants this kind of biased Sh#@ from mods, I guess i will shut the F@#$ up.

[John Smith]

Im very deeply offended Joe plutos comment. But Persons like him say whatever comments he likes coz moderators think that he is mild and for others they issue warning or just delete the post and if somebody oppose it they simply goa dn delete the post. .It seems that there is a misconception here.
Indeed, there is, -- it's called the cultural consensus. If you ask me, I think that Joe Pluto's post was as offensive (or as honest) as the post by another rancher that was deleted. It's very easy to see that an elaborate passage can hurt someone's feelings more than a simple "fuck you", yet it is the "fuck you" post that will be punished.
In my opinion, the best solution is to let people express themselves in whatever manner they think is best. But we have been through this in MD before, and we probably don't want to bring this discussion back.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
Im very deeply offended Joe plutos comment. But Persons like him say whatever comments he likes coz moderators think that he is mild and for others they issue warning or just delete the post and if somebody oppose it they simply goa dn delete the post.

Maybe you could start by saying exactly what it is that Joe stated that you find so offensive? People are free to have opinions which others might not like, so since none of the moderators apparently see where Joe has stated anything insulting, maybe you could tell us what you are talking about so we can come to some understanding?

It seems that there is a misconception here. Everyone thinks that Indians only came here as H1-B . Its not the truth.

I don't see where anyone has stated that. In fact, the only comments made here by non-Indians were one poster relating his experience in a company he worked in, and Joe mentioning a push by Indian body shops to make it so they don't have to pay social security tax. I think you may be reading more into people's comments than what is being said here.

When there is a severe shortage of IT workers USA asked ppls frm other countries to come here. Now there is no more shoratge so blaming these poor folks.

Whether or not there was ever a shortage is debatable, but anyway... I don't believe that anybody is blaming the visa holders, rather they are blaming the US government. At least that's how I read it.

Okay now there is a sever shortage of nurses here. So most of the experienced nurses are coming here by h1-b visa. It doesn�t make any sense to me saying that remove IT workers frm H1-B.

The only purpose of the H1-B visa is to address job shortages in certain very select fields. There is a current shortage in nurses in this country, nursing is covered by the H1-B visa, so as long as a shortage continues, then it is beneficial to allow people in on that visa. There is however no shortage of domestic IT workers. As the only purpose of the H1-B visa is address shortages, and no shortage currently exists, then there is no reason to continue to allow the visa to apply to the IT sector. I would add this doesn't mean that people here should be kicked out, but simply that no new visas should be issued until there is again a shortage.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:

Dude, I dont care. that bi@&% is a hypocrite. She co-authored the book 'Professional Java Server Programming J2Ee 1.4 Edition' with an indian and i do not understand her point. Why the hell she has to mention an Indian, she couldn't hold her horses and she is a racist bi@&%. she could have taken chinese (who also are a large part of H1 next to indians). well nah she has to hit below the belt. Oh well, every frigging european, british, portugese, french, spanish etc ruled and robbed indians for 200+ years and again they immigrated to US of A and robbed native indians their lands. Talking of hyprocy some people are the best at it.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Levi Allam ]

Levi,
The article was about economics. You may not LIKE her view on economics but YOU turned it into a race issue. The only thing "race" related in her article related to some personal experiences with language difficulties. Having a different language is NOT a race issue. :roll: Part of the service that she expects when she pays for a service is to be able to communicate with the service provider.
As always, there are two sides to every story. She was telling hers. She was actually fairly temperate and specifically stated that she did NOT mind working with folks from other places in the world, she just expects the same level of capability that she would if the person was a native American. After all she co-authored a book with an Indian, because she RESPECTED the expertise of that person. It is NOT racist to expect a person in a different country to provide the same level of service.
The point she makes is just that cheap does not necessarily mean better. I am sure that there are people in other countries that are just as good or better than those over here. It is just that right now, in the frenzy to outsource off shore, folks with inadequate experience and cabilities are getting positions that they are not capable of handling well.
Stating that does NOT make her a racist. It just means that she is telling her experiences.
At any rate, if you do not cool your jets, your comments will get deleted by me if not Jason. You are way out of line.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:
I guess i will shut the F@#$ up.

A really good idea in this case.

[Mapraputa Is]

LA: I understand that but thats a double standard when it comes to my posts its offensive and when it comes to others its not offensive. I guess i should not post anything that offends my american brotheren, but offending my indian brotheren should be ok.
Absolutely. That's how people are -- we feel only our own pain, that's physiology. Then, we can (sometimes) have some compassion for another human being if his sufferings look familiar to our own. If they do not, then we do not even understand what the heck he screams about.
If you say that javaranch owner wants this kind of biased Sh#@ from mods, I guess i will shut the F@#$ up.
You need to calm down and then come back with a more effective plan of communicating your feelings. When you insult people, you only make it more difficult for them to see your arguments, regardless of how valid your arguments are and whether these people deserve an insult or not.

[Mapraputa Is]

JM: Maybe you could start by saying exactly what it is that Joe stated that you find so offensive? People are free to have opinions which others might not like, so since none of the moderators apparently see where Joe has stated anything insulting, maybe you could tell us what you are talking about so we can come to some understanding?
I was also perplexed that Joe's posts were considered offensive and would appreciate some insult as to what statement was so bad, or was it a general idea? "After reading all these sarcastic post from persons like Joe and other" - again, I did not detect any particular sarcasm in Joe's post (if you decided to single him out). Could you point out where exactly do you see it?

[A. Levi]

Ok. Cindy, i agree i was way out of line. But if you have read sue's comments and i believe you might have already done that here is one such comment
'When you are about to buy a product, call the company and ask them if they outsource their IT and their customer support before you make the purchase. If they do, then simply don’t buy the product. But make sure you write an email or letter to the CEO or President and let them know flat out why you didn’t buy the product. American companies will listen when their wallets are being squeezed. Maybe we should start industry-wide and consumer aware boycotts of these companies and publicly supporting those companies that support the American high-tech worker. If enough people stop buying the products that are built and/or supported by offshore companies, then I think that American companies will start to listen.'
She is clearly talking about Hightech workers. Why the double standard of hitech workers and offshore cry, it is everywhere. If you are wearing Nike or reebok or even your clothes in your wardrobe and the label says atleast one of those countries in asia, why do you buy them? cause they are cheap and manufactured by 'cheap labour'. Try imposing those self ban on everything offshore and see whether you could afford a whole bunch of designer sneakers to your kids. They manufacture clothes, shoes and everything offshore and label them over here. Place where i am from india, i know some of my friends who work as labor in some of those sweat shops and they label their products as (Made in USA) including US of A Flags too, cause their vendor from USA have asked so.
Sue is crying all the way up JUST cause her area of expertise is high tech and she aint bothered about any other industry. she is selfish and people who support her over here are high tech too so obviously her comments makes them feel good. This offshore business has always been there in other industries even before IT why such a sudden furor i dont understand.
how is it different that a piece of code is 'Manufactured' offshore and shipped to USA for X$'s than manufacturing a Nike shoe offshore and shipping to USA?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
Im very deeply offended Joe plutos comment.

Why? Joe said nothing that was offensive. He stated the truth. The H1-B program was established because there was a (mythical) shortage of IT workers in the US. Now there is no shortage so the H1-B program (for IT workers)should end. Why is that offensive? No one is saying that Indian workers are conspiring to take our jobs. We are stating that the H1-B program is causing US IT workers to lose their job which is not what the program was designed to do. This isn't racist. No one is saying send back Indians or Chinese who are here on permanent visas.

[Cindy Glass]

Thank you Levi.
Actually I agree with you, there is no difference. It is a fact of life that as we evolve into a global workforce that things are going to re-adjust themselves until a new equilibrium is reached. It is just that at this moment the High-tech industry is getting the hardest hit. They have the double whammy of extra HB1 workers that were allowed into the US during the Intenet boom and Y2K frenzy that are still here even when the work has faded away, and the increased technology that improves the ability to work remotely allowing offshore workers, for the first time, a chance to compete for jobs that were previously strictly for workers physically in the US.
As these things always do, things are swinging too drastically from one extreme to another. I expect that that is what Sue is feeling. She is fighting to maintain status quo, which may be naive in the long run, but is very understandable.
The good part about what she says is that she points out is the places that will NEED to be fixed, if there is going to be any long term off shoring solutions. Language is a major issue. When India is paying the bill, we will all learn to speak with an Indian accent, however at the moment the US is paying the bill, and expects to be able to communicate easily. There needs to be better methods of insuring that the resources have proper skills. Frankly the HB1 program in the High Tech sector is a dinosaur, and it will die eventually from lack of need.
I have said before that this is no different than when computers came in and took over many of the jobs on assembly lines. The workers kicked and screamed at that time, but it was inevitable. Off shoring is just as inevitable, so it makes more sense to work with what is coming than to shake your fist at the tidal wave.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:
If you are wearing Nike or reebok or even your clothes in your wardrobe and the label says atleast one of those countries in asia, why do you buy them?

I wear Converse and drive a Dodge. I support US industry whenever I can. If that makes me racist then I am racist.

[A. Levi]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I wear Converse and drive a Dodge. I support US industry whenever I can. If that makes me racist then I am racist.

Nah that makes you a patriot . Any way Converse are one ugly ass shoes though. I love them Dodge Ram trucks those things are beasts.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Levi Allam ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Levi Allam:
Any way Converse are one ugly ass shoes though.

Ugly but cool. My daughter saw a picture of Avril Lavigne wearing a pair of the Converse high-tops so she had to have a pair! So a Canadian gives a plug to US industry!