Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
They used to have work placement programmes for HND and graduates. Don't they anymore ? That would be real life experience IMHO. Some students do it over three years even.
Originally posted by Bela Bardak:
I forsee a massive skills shortage about 3-4 years in the future.
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
They used to have work placement programmes for HND and graduates. Don't they anymore ? That would be real life experience IMHO. Some students do it over three years even.
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
Do you mean IT skills shortage or across the board ? I believe non-IT graduate are doing OK in th job market. IT is still in recession very unusually so.
SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
Originally posted by HS Thomas:
is why University graduates are having such a tough time finding work ?
Lack of experience of the real world is what one agent told me.
Huh ?
Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
A dean of a top university (forgive me for not being more specific, this was a private conversation and so he might not want to be publically quoted) was commenting how it takes a few yeard for engineers--in all fields--to really be productive. Most large companies see college grads as an investment--that 5-10 years down the road they'll still be around and will become a star. Of course, during a down economy strategic investing like this is curtailed.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
The program I work with at MIT was designed to address this problem. Personally, I don't think most MIT grads (myself included) are prepared to start adding value to a company right away; so I agree with the agent completely.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Computer Science != Software Engineering
Most computer science majors have never produced commercial software. They're written programs, but that's not the same thing. In their projects requirements are whatever they think of and if something's forgotten, it's cobbled in later--so what if it's a band aid, it's not like they need to maintain the code base 2 years from now. Documentation, what's that? Packaging and deployment, to whom? Testing, hey, it ran last night without crashing.
--Mark
Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Originally posted by Tim Baker:
In the UK computer science covers a lot of coding, and the rest of the life cycle, including analysis, documentation and testing. We might not have produced any commercial software on the course but thats what university is...From the people I know it is aparent that most Comp. Sci. courses in the UK require a final year project which is big and includes all aspects of comp sci including analysis and research, coding and then documentation and testing.
Originally posted by Tim Baker:
thats what university is, architect graduates have never actually built a building![]()
Yeah, but in that field, no one epxetcs them to build one within the first few years, instead the "apprentice" under more senior architects. In our field, many companies expect engineers to hit the ground running; instead they just hit the ground.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I do not know much about Uk Cs programs. I do know that many US CS undergraduate and masters programs also produce a big project which covers all aspects of software engineering. I also know it's value is quite limited. They only topically address most issues, and, more importantly, decisions are neither rewarded or punished. You don't have to suffer a bad design decision two years later.
--Mark
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Computer Science != Software Engineering
Kim Jong II (North Korea's Dear Leader) said:Nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people.
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
All my kins, I told them to find a job once they graduated from high school. Even though they plan to enroll in college. It serves a multiple purposes.
1. Don't have too much free time to spend with those out-of-date Greek clubs.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I must strongly disagree. I was (and am) a member of Pi Lambda Phi fraternity. I still stop by the fraternity house at least once a month (in fact, I had dinner there last night). It has had a huge impact on my career and personal growth. I would not have the job I am in now if not for my fraternity (indirectly).
I think fraternities can be very useful. But like all tools/organizations, "they can be used for good or evil." A stereotypical fraternity that focuses only on drinking is of marginal use. The fraternities I have seen and heard of at MIT, RPI, Duke, etc can be a fantastic part of college. Obviously they provide a social outlet, but they also allow for leadership growth, and limited independance during the transition into adulthood. At MIT for example, you have 40 "kids" who run and maintain a house (we do our own repairs), hire employees (we had a chef), are solely responsibile for their own recruiting (it's increadibly similar to interviewing), and manage a $100,000 annual budget. You don't get opportunities like that in most dorms. After college it's a fantastic network to draw upon. Through the alumni network of just my own chapter, I've found jobs, gotten advice on MBA applications, learned about economic policy through lengthy discussion on our mailing list, met women, gone to parties and social events, and currently know people throughout the US and even the world--I can find someone to stay with or to show me around in just about any major US city. It's also been very useful to our alumni for medical, legal, technical and other advice.
--Mark
BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I must strongly disagree. I was (and am) a member of Pi Lambda Phi fraternity. I still stop by the fraternity house at least once a month (in fact, I had dinner there last night). It has had a huge impact on my career and personal growth. I would not have the job I am in now if not for my fraternity (indirectly).
I think fraternities can be very useful. But like all tools/organizations, "they can be used for good or evil." A stereotypical fraternity that focuses only on drinking is of marginal use. The fraternities I have seen and heard of at MIT, RPI, Duke, etc can be a fantastic part of college. Obviously they provide a social outlet, but they also allow for leadership growth, and limited independance during the transition into adulthood. At MIT for example, you have 40 "kids" who run and maintain a house (we do our own repairs), hire employees (we had a chef), are solely responsibile for their own recruiting (it's increadibly similar to interviewing), and manage a $100,000 annual budget. You don't get opportunities like that in most dorms. After college it's a fantastic network to draw upon. Through the alumni network of just my own chapter, I've found jobs, gotten advice on MBA applications, learned about economic policy through lengthy discussion on our mailing list, met women, gone to parties and social events, and currently know people throughout the US and even the world--I can find someone to stay with or to show me around in just about any major US city. It's also been very useful to our alumni for medical, legal, technical and other advice.
--Mark
Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:
Not to be mean here, but you are a socializing machine if you can find someone to stay with in every major US city.
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
I view such fraternities with distaste.
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
I view such fraternities with distaste. The only purpose they serve is to perpetuate priviledge for their members. This of course may imply that when a hiring manager is considering potential hires he will not be looking for the best person for the job, instead he would employ one of his "frat siblings" - simply another form of nepotism
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
The only purpose they serve is to perpetuate priviledge for their members.
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
This of course may imply that when a hiring manager is considering potential hires he will not be looking for the best person for the job, instead he would employ one of his "frat siblings" - simply another form of nepotism
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