why do University graduates have a tough time finding work

[HS Thomas]

is why University graduates are having such a tough time finding work ?
Lack of experience of the real world is what one agent told me.
Huh ?
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Tim Baker]

Put simply all companies are looking for at least 2 years commercial experience in whatever particular tools they use. They're not interested in taking on people who don't already have the exact skills they need and they don't have to be, there are plenty of people out there with them.
Every now and then I see a job advertised that is suitable for a graduate, but it's not often.
In a few years there won't be many people with 2-3 years experience, so I guess they'll have to start looking at graduates again.

[HS Thomas]

They used to have work placement programmes for HND and graduates. Don't they anymore ? That would be real life experience IMHO. Some students do it over three years even.
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Bela Bardak]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
They used to have work placement programmes for HND and graduates. Don't they anymore ? That would be real life experience IMHO. Some students do it over three years even.

I read somewhere that 26% of 2002 IT grads were actually working in the field. I suspect many of them were in work programmes while in school, and were given offers by their employer afterward. Most others have a big problem. It's not impossible but very difficult.
I forsee a massive skills shortage about 3-4 years in the future.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by Bela Bardak:

I forsee a massive skills shortage about 3-4 years in the future.

Do you mean IT skills shortage or across the board ? I believe non-IT graduate are doing OK in th job market. IT is still in recession very unusually so.

[HS Thomas]

No Internship. No Entry?
Getting an internship is harder than getting a job.

[Tim Baker]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
They used to have work placement programmes for HND and graduates. Don't they anymore ? That would be real life experience IMHO. Some students do it over three years even.
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

Most graduate entry programmes are suspended. Much like this one:
http://uk.sun.com/company/jobs/graduate/index.html
Which has been 'closed' for years.

[HS Thomas]

Thanks Tim. Scott McMealy's comment seems particularly pertinent.
As there are currently no specific Graduate opportunities - we would encourage you to consider any "Current Opportunities" suited to your skills, posted on the OJP site. These can be found at:
uk.sun.com/ojp
"I'm getting old! I didn't grow up with Java and the Web. We need the fresh perspective of the wired generation to help us mould our future. This is where our UK and worldwide graduates add value immediately."
Scott McNealy
CEO SUN MICROSYSTEMS
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Bela Bardak]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Do you mean IT skills shortage or across the board ? I believe non-IT graduate are doing OK in th job market. IT is still in recession very unusually so.

IT, HS. Of course. The results of the recession are working their way through the grapevine. Current students are (I'm sure) opting out of IT in large numbers. Even though conditions should be much better by graduation. IT graduates from 2001-2003 are finding jobs in other areas and there is where they will make their careers. And many people have dropped out of IT, particularly the younger ones.

[Mark Ju]

I don't understand why graduates EXPECT a job as if it's a right. I think jobs have to be earned. What have you done to earn it? Do you have the research and internship experience? Did you do well academically? Are you personable?
If not, work on some of these areas and with perseverance, you will find a job.

[Jon McDonald]

Part of the problem may be students not utilizing their campus career center early enough, if at all. Several people I have met planned on "relaxing" for a few months after graduation, before finding a job. When they are ready, they go to the job search sites and find only jobs requiring experience.
Some others don't start going to the career center until about the second semester of their senior year. These days, students have to look for internships and opportunities earlier and earlier. I know guys that got internships during the summer of their freshman year and wound up working for that company after graduation.
Also, a lot of career centers aren't as aggressive as they could be in finding employeers to provide internships, come to job fairs, and do campus presentations/interviews.
Students may want to check out if they can go to other universities' job fairs, in addition to their own. It never hurts to ask.
Jon

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
is why University graduates are having such a tough time finding work ?
Lack of experience of the real world is what one agent told me.
Huh ?

Computer Science != Software Engineering
Most computer science majors have never produced commercial software. They're written programs, but that's not the same thing. In their projects requirements are whatever they think of and if something's forgotten, it's cobbled in later--so what if it's a band aid, it's not like they need to maintain the code base 2 years from now. Documentation, what's that? Packaging and deployment, to whom? Testing, hey, it ran last night without crashing.
A dean of a top university (forgive me for not being more specific, this was a private conversation and so he might not want to be publically quoted) was commenting how it takes a few yeard for engineers--in all fields--to really be productive. Most large companies see college grads as an investment--that 5-10 years down the road they'll still be around and will become a star. Of course, during a down economy strategic investing like this is curtailed.
The program I work with at MIT was designed to address this problem. Personally, I don't think most MIT grads (myself included) are prepared to start adding value to a company right away; so I agree with the agent completely.
--Mark

[Tim Baker]

You're right in that in my final year I didn't do much to find a job, however it was because I was so damn busy, with my FYP/Dissertation to get done by the deadline, and as soon as that is over you've got exams! I was looking at graduate programs of all the companies I know and like, but couldn't find any with a proper graduate program.

[Bela Bardak]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

A dean of a top university (forgive me for not being more specific, this was a private conversation and so he might not want to be publically quoted) was commenting how it takes a few yeard for engineers--in all fields--to really be productive. Most large companies see college grads as an investment--that 5-10 years down the road they'll still be around and will become a star. Of course, during a down economy strategic investing like this is curtailed.

A top university with a three-letter acronym? Say RPI?
I've seen two impressive graduate programs. GE Medical Systems had a 3 year graduate program which ended with a Masters degree. I worked with some of them. Projects could request graduates time without having to count the cost of their salary in their budgets, though they did have to account for their use of the young engineers.
Bell Labs had a program where they hired top graduates who started work for between 9 and 18 month, then went on to grad school for a year to 18 months tuition paid plus a salary.
The problem is that people started recruiting the people who made it through these programs just as they became really valuable to the company. Which sadly made the programs uneconomic. Particularly the Bell Labs program.

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

The program I work with at MIT was designed to address this problem. Personally, I don't think most MIT grads (myself included) are prepared to start adding value to a company right away; so I agree with the agent completely.

Unfortunately true, though not everyone sees it that way.
I worked at an ex Big-Five consultantcy which tended to put the graduates onto projects while 'beaching' experienced people. A form of cost-cutting which backfired spectacularly on one project when a shell script written by a graduate deleted most of the file system on the production server on a data warehousing project. Compounded by the fact that their automatic backups weren't. That however couldn't be ascribed to incompetent graduates but rather to incompetent (experienced) administrators.
After this happened the second time they asked me in to look at the problem, which took me 4 hours to fix. There were 7 of these little bombs in the code. Total cost about �500,000 Of course they saved about �12,000 in labor costs so that was alright......
[ January 15, 2004: Message edited by: Bela Bardak ]

[Tim Baker]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


Computer Science != Software Engineering
Most computer science majors have never produced commercial software. They're written programs, but that's not the same thing. In their projects requirements are whatever they think of and if something's forgotten, it's cobbled in later--so what if it's a band aid, it's not like they need to maintain the code base 2 years from now. Documentation, what's that? Packaging and deployment, to whom? Testing, hey, it ran last night without crashing.
--Mark

In the UK computer science covers a lot of coding, and the rest of the life cycle, including analysis, documentation and testing. We might not have produced any commercial software on the course but thats what university is, architect graduates have never actually built a building From the people I know it is aparent that most Comp. Sci. courses in the UK require a final year project which is big and includes all aspects of comp sci including analysis and research, coding and then documentation and testing.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Tim Baker:

In the UK computer science covers a lot of coding, and the rest of the life cycle, including analysis, documentation and testing. We might not have produced any commercial software on the course but thats what university is...From the people I know it is aparent that most Comp. Sci. courses in the UK require a final year project which is big and includes all aspects of comp sci including analysis and research, coding and then documentation and testing.

I do not know much about Uk Cs programs. I do know that many US CS undergraduate and masters programs also produce a big project which covers all aspects of software engineering. I also know it's value is quite limited. They only topically address most issues, and, more importantly, decisions are neither rewarded or punished. You don't have to suffer a bad design decision two years later.

Originally posted by Tim Baker:

thats what university is, architect graduates have never actually built a building

Yeah, but in that field, no one epxetcs them to build one within the first few years, instead the "apprentice" under more senior architects. In our field, many companies expect engineers to hit the ground running; instead they just hit the ground.
--Mark

[Bela Bardak]

Yeah, but in that field, no one epxetcs them to build one within the first few years, instead the "apprentice" under more senior architects. In our field, many companies expect engineers to hit the ground running; instead they just hit the ground.

Good simile. From about 15 feet up. Enought to break bones but not kill you. I was canned from my first job but learned enough there to succeed on my second.

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
I think is had to do with continuously and depth. For example, if an Accounting student graduate with an AA, she/he could do the professional job just fine with coaching here and there. But with an BA she/he could perform the professional job except when there is tricky situation such as avalanche or burried the hatch. Due to the nature of technology flow pace, IT graduate with a BS, he/she still need someone guidance and it is costs.

All my kins, I told them to find a job once they graduated from high school. Even though they plan to enroll in college. It serves a multiple purposes.
1. Don't have too much free time to spend with those out-of-date Greek clubs.
2. Learn to organize time as if has been force to.
3. Speak with people with respect then will automatically show when speaking to authority figures.
4. Apply real world experience to solve academia and work problems.
5. Learn to love structure environment.
6. Technology is tool to enhance Certain Thing. Certain Thing is what they must master.
Regards,
MCao

[Tim Baker]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I do not know much about Uk Cs programs. I do know that many US CS undergraduate and masters programs also produce a big project which covers all aspects of software engineering. I also know it's value is quite limited. They only topically address most issues, and, more importantly, decisions are neither rewarded or punished. You don't have to suffer a bad design decision two years later.
--Mark

Ok I think I misunderstood you when you said:

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Computer Science != Software Engineering

Because they do degrees in Software Engineering at my university. But what your talking about is commercial software engineering which is of course different, no course can prepare a graduate to parachute straight into a SE role without support and learning in the initial stages of the job.
Of course some courses like mine did have real world commercial experience but there are few positions that ask for just a single year experience

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Matt Cao:

All my kins, I told them to find a job once they graduated from high school. Even though they plan to enroll in college. It serves a multiple purposes.
1. Don't have too much free time to spend with those out-of-date Greek clubs.

I must strongly disagree. I was (and am) a member of Pi Lambda Phi fraternity. I still stop by the fraternity house at least once a month (in fact, I had dinner there last night). It has had a huge impact on my career and personal growth. I would not have the job I am in now if not for my fraternity (indirectly).
I think fraternities can be very useful. But like all tools/organizations, "they can be used for good or evil." A stereotypical fraternity that focuses only on drinking is of marginal use. The fraternities I have seen and heard of at MIT, RPI, Duke, etc can be a fantastic part of college. Obviously they provide a social outlet, but they also allow for leadership growth, and limited independance during the transition into adulthood. At MIT for example, you have 40 "kids" who run and maintain a house (we do our own repairs), hire employees (we had a chef), are solely responsibile for their own recruiting (it's increadibly similar to interviewing), and manage a $100,000 annual budget. You don't get opportunities like that in most dorms. After college it's a fantastic network to draw upon. Through the alumni network of just my own chapter, I've found jobs, gotten advice on MBA applications, learned about economic policy through lengthy discussion on our mailing list, met women, gone to parties and social events, and currently know people throughout the US and even the world--I can find someone to stay with or to show me around in just about any major US city. It's also been very useful to our alumni for medical, legal, technical and other advice.
--Mark

[Vitor Belfort]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I must strongly disagree. I was (and am) a member of Pi Lambda Phi fraternity. I still stop by the fraternity house at least once a month (in fact, I had dinner there last night). It has had a huge impact on my career and personal growth. I would not have the job I am in now if not for my fraternity (indirectly).
I think fraternities can be very useful. But like all tools/organizations, "they can be used for good or evil." A stereotypical fraternity that focuses only on drinking is of marginal use. The fraternities I have seen and heard of at MIT, RPI, Duke, etc can be a fantastic part of college. Obviously they provide a social outlet, but they also allow for leadership growth, and limited independance during the transition into adulthood. At MIT for example, you have 40 "kids" who run and maintain a house (we do our own repairs), hire employees (we had a chef), are solely responsibile for their own recruiting (it's increadibly similar to interviewing), and manage a $100,000 annual budget. You don't get opportunities like that in most dorms. After college it's a fantastic network to draw upon. Through the alumni network of just my own chapter, I've found jobs, gotten advice on MBA applications, learned about economic policy through lengthy discussion on our mailing list, met women, gone to parties and social events, and currently know people throughout the US and even the world--I can find someone to stay with or to show me around in just about any major US city. It's also been very useful to our alumni for medical, legal, technical and other advice.
--Mark

Not to be mean here, but you are a socializing machine if you can find someone to stay with in every major US city. My experience with fraternities leads me to believe that the people that are part of it just use each other as means towards a job or God knows what and then forget about each other upon graduation. But hey, that's just me, my life is not universal.

[Billy Tsai]

in the university i went to bachelor of science in computer science is taught by the department of science and is a 3 years degree, Bachelor of engineering in Software engineering is taught by the department of engineering(electrical electronic engineering and computer science departments professors teach them) and is a 4 years degree. Bachelor of commerce in INformation system is a 3years degree taught by the department of commerce.
All of their master degrees are 2 years programme.

[shay Aluko]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I must strongly disagree. I was (and am) a member of Pi Lambda Phi fraternity. I still stop by the fraternity house at least once a month (in fact, I had dinner there last night). It has had a huge impact on my career and personal growth. I would not have the job I am in now if not for my fraternity (indirectly).
I think fraternities can be very useful. But like all tools/organizations, "they can be used for good or evil." A stereotypical fraternity that focuses only on drinking is of marginal use. The fraternities I have seen and heard of at MIT, RPI, Duke, etc can be a fantastic part of college. Obviously they provide a social outlet, but they also allow for leadership growth, and limited independance during the transition into adulthood. At MIT for example, you have 40 "kids" who run and maintain a house (we do our own repairs), hire employees (we had a chef), are solely responsibile for their own recruiting (it's increadibly similar to interviewing), and manage a $100,000 annual budget. You don't get opportunities like that in most dorms. After college it's a fantastic network to draw upon. Through the alumni network of just my own chapter, I've found jobs, gotten advice on MBA applications, learned about economic policy through lengthy discussion on our mailing list, met women, gone to parties and social events, and currently know people throughout the US and even the world--I can find someone to stay with or to show me around in just about any major US city. It's also been very useful to our alumni for medical, legal, technical and other advice.
--Mark

I view such fraternities with distaste. The only purpose they serve is to perpetuate priviledge for their members. This of course may imply that when a hiring manager is considering potential hires he will not be looking for the best person for the job, instead he would employ one of his "frat siblings" - simply another form of nepotism

[Joe Pluta]

LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA UNITE!
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
Joe

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Vitor Belfort:

Not to be mean here, but you are a socializing machine if you can find someone to stay with in every major US city.

I can't take credit, it's our fraternity culture.

Originally posted by shay Aluko:

I view such fraternities with distaste.

That's ok, I'm sure the fraternities don't like you either. :-p

Originally posted by shay Aluko:

I view such fraternities with distaste. The only purpose they serve is to perpetuate priviledge for their members. This of course may imply that when a hiring manager is considering potential hires he will not be looking for the best person for the job, instead he would employ one of his "frat siblings" - simply another form of nepotism

Originally posted by shay Aluko:

The only purpose they serve is to perpetuate priviledge for their members.

Perhaps you could explain this privaledge to me? I never saw any special privaledges.

Originally posted by shay Aluko:

This of course may imply that when a hiring manager is considering potential hires he will not be looking for the best person for the job, instead he would employ one of his "frat siblings" - simply another form of nepotism

You seem to believe that thw two can't go hand in hand. As I've often explained business is first and foremost about trust. I hire my friends and colleagues because I can trust them. by trust I mean I know their capabilities, I know they are responsibile and I know how to communicate with them; with a new hire, those are all speculative.
Besides which, all fraternities do is formalize connection, not promote nepotism per se.
--Mark