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Outsourcing Information

 
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I attended a conference yesterday form the British Computer Society on Outsourcing.
Some interesting things i found out!
India is sending low level work to China & Vietnam.
India has over 60% of the worlds CMM organisations (That means they can guarentee higher quality products, then the UK! NOW).
India produces 6 million I.T grads a year.
The latest outsourcing trend is ON DEMAND BASED.
Outsouring can be taken to an extreme up to 20% of the in-house I.T will be retained.
Main problems with outsourcing are:
Cultural Differences
Collaboration Loss
Communication Richness & Co-ordination Breakdown.
US outsourincg activites will slow down.
Europe has a lot of catching up to do.
a minimum of 30% in house will have to be retained.
Organisations should consider outsourcing application by application.
40 other countries are up and coming in to the outsourcing game e.g. Egypt
Would like to hear peoples comments on this!
 
Robin Davies
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sorry, my mistake 20% retained!
 
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{
.....That means they can guarentee higher quality products
}
I doubt CMM means high quality products.They are the set of guidelines for execution of project.From my experience,if you take 10 minutes to add Button on JSP form,using CMM it takes 2 days!
 
Robin Davies
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For your information a CMM Level 5 comany ........
WILL BE ABLE TO:
Increase Customer Satisfaction
Faster Product Delivery
Reduced Costs
Improve Productivity
Improve Quality
Allow more accurate and predictable schedules
Increase Employee Morale
Increase ROI
[ EJFH: Personal attack deleted ]
[ February 20, 2004: Message edited by: Ernest Friedman-Hill ]
 
author and iconoclast
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Originally posted by Robin Davies:
For your information a CMM Level 5 comany ........


This is one possibility. It's certainly what the SEI will tell you, and what some organizations believe. But remember that the SEI is in the business of selling certifications. CMM is properly written CMM®, after all!
There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that CMM certification alone -- especially at level 4 or below -- does nothing to improve the ability of an organization to deliver value. The issue is hardly as cut and dried as you've made it out to be.
In any event, I had to edit your message above because of the impoliteness it included. You may recall that the number one rule here at the Ranch is "Be nice." We don't cotton to the kind of behavior you've displayed here today. Consider yourself warned.
 
Robin Davies
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I have studied Software Process Improvement in much detail.
That is why i have to disagree with you!
 
Robin Davies
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oh really, like i didn't know
 
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Somebody flamed Casablanca???
 
Ugly Redneck
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What outsiders seldom realize is that CMM level is so easy to obtain that I could do it in 3 months for any company. The idea behind CMM is right but the auditing is highly flawed.
Unlike ISO, CMM does not have a standards / audit comittee, therefore how companies get CMM certification is by asking the QA team of another CMM organization to come and audit their processes/standards. And this makes it sooo easy to manipulate.
Heck! I'll even bet that I could make any organization a CMM level 4 organization
 
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Robin, I find it difficult to understand how you can take such a strong stance on this issue considering the fact that you have previously admitted to having zero experience in the field. Since your viewpoint cannot be based on personal experience, it must certainly be based on other sources... care to share some references with us?
Myself and many others that have been working in the field for years hold the same viewpoint as EFH. YMMV, but no software process can guarantee success... it is all relative to the project and the quality of the people involved with it.
 
Robin Davies
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"What outsiders seldom realize is that CMM level is so easy to obtain that I could do it in 3 months for any company."
What a load of...............
I think not.
 
Robin Davies
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Why the hell do you think it's called CAPABILITY maturity level integration
 
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An Atlas of Offshore Outsourcing
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/feb2004/sb20040218_6502_PG2.htm
By David E. Gumpert


I decided to call the bluff of some of the consultants. Tell me, I challenged four of them, about both the strengths and weaknesses of your favored country or countries as they might affect a small business that is considering outsourcing. What follows is a country-by-country synopsis of the responses:



[Full text removed--Mark Herschberg]
[ February 20, 2004: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]
 
Ranch Hand
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Originally posted by Robin Davies:
For your information a CMM Level 5 comany ........
WILL BE ABLE TO:
Increase Customer Satisfaction
Faster Product Delivery
Reduced Costs
Improve Productivity
Improve Quality
Allow more accurate and predictable schedules
Increase Employee Morale
Increase ROI
[ EJFH: Personal attack deleted ]
[ February 20, 2004: Message edited by: Ernest Friedman-Hill ]



Rolling on floor laughing Never used the CMM have you??
Many times moving to CMM does just the opposite.
CMM is just a process. I have worked for a CMM level 4 company and I have worked for companies that never heard of CMM. Guess what? The quality of software was actually better at some of the non CMM companies.
Delivery schedules we're certainly faster using non CMM processes.
 
Robin Davies
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So then why are the Indians racing to become CMMI certified?
And why was it pointed out at this conference by leading experst in the field?
 
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IMO, obtaining CMM certification proves that a company works based on a set of standard(approved?) practices. True the process (development) is slow, but the final product is guaranteed to be of acceptable(good?) quality.
And getting a certificate doesn't mean the company would produce superior quality products. The process of developing the product is certified and that would make sure that the quality of the product doesn't suck. In other words, the product is usable and in most cases is really good.
 
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Did you mean to say that India has 60% of the world's CMM level 5 organizations? Note that all organizations are are some CMM level. Not all are certified at that level (including some level 5 shops).
You can find an old listing at http://www.sei.cmu.edu/activities/cmm/high-maturity/HighMatOrgs.pdf. According to this recent article only about 80 companies in the world are CMM level 4, so that SEI list may not be so out of date.
It's not yet clear what that number means. Even assuming it is valuable to be certified (and I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with that statement in this posting), that's equivalent to saying, SCEA is valuable (we'll assume for the moment that I actually think it is--and let's not get into this discussion in this thread). Even if SCEA is valuable, it does not imply that those without are less valuable. It does provide a signal, but then so do prior projects. I don't see enough data yet to believe that CMM levels are necessarily a stronger signal.
--Mark
 
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Hi,
Have anyone ever think not because of the quality vs cost of westerner programmers that causes management decided to adpopt outsourcing strategies, but instead of the work ethic vs attitude?
Who give a damn about BCS saying, it may be a well reputation organization, but it still under the umbrella of focus group. As any focus group, the objective is to sell a certain philosophy/concept as testing water. If it cannot sell to the people of like minded, then there is no chance in hell that particular philosophy/cencept will sell to the mass public.
Regards,
MCao
 
Paul McKenna
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I have worked in Indian companies that were CMM Level 5 certified and if I ,may be allowed to gloat a little, was an active participant in ensuring an organization obtained the Level 4 certification. I can vouch that I was disappointed with the auditing standards. We were really prepared for a grilling but had to face nothing more than a pip squeak.
A better standard is Six Sigma, to be Six Sigma the company does not need to satisfy any external agency but a mere look at the company's annual statement will prove/disprove the claim.
 
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Originally posted by Robin Davies:
I attended a conference yesterday form the British Computer Society on Outsourcing.
...
India produces 6 million I.T grads a year.
...
Would like to hear peoples comments on this!


6 million IT grads a year!!! This figure looks high to me. Did they really give this figure at the conference?
 
Robin Davies
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Matt Cao - i don't quite get your point?
"The British Computer Society (BCS) is the industry body for IT professionals, and a Chartered Engineering Institution for Information Technology (IT). With members in over 100 countries around the world, the BCS is the leading professional and learned Society in the field of computers and information systems."
 
Ranch Hand
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Yes, but of marginal importance. IT is still an "unprofessional" profession.
 
Matt Cao
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Originally posted by Robin Davies:
Matt Cao - i don't quite get your point?


Hi,
Does it throw anyone of you in jail or revoke your license to practice programming because your codes created a negative affect on someone business? If yes, then take their words by heart.
There are many professions that have powerful focus group that you could "assume their words are the laws".
Regards,
MCao
 
Robin Davies
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To Steven Broadbent - It is possible to become a chartered IT professionsal
(CEng)
How is that unprofessional?
 
Steven Broadbent
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What I mean is that for many professions - ie Civil engineer, doctor, accountant, lawyer, plumber, chef etc there are qualifications before entering the profession or during the early years.
The It certifications (which are not even widely respected in the industry) are typically done later - typically most people enter as fresh grads.
Thats what I mean by a "non professional profession". Perhaps that explains why so many It projects fail. Maybe our industry just grew up to quick???
 
Greenhorn
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India is sending low level work to China & Vietnam.
India has over 60% of the worlds CMM organisations (That means they can guarentee higher quality products, then the UK! NOW).
India produces 6 million I.T grads a year.
The latest outsourcing trend is ON DEMAND BASED.


Hey Robin,
India & China are countries with huge population(billion). The White collared office going staff form a miniscule percentage of it - IT Grads even less. However the numbers may appear big to you compartively. There are 10 million graduates in India. India generates more university graduates than the United States- some 40% with degrees in science and engineering.
Population makes the competition fierce and hence getting a degree is important to get a decent job.
 
Saloon Keeper
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Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
... Perhaps that explains why so many It projects fail. Maybe our industry just grew up to quick???


Here's my $USD .02: A great number of software efforts I've seen fall into 1 of 2 categories:
1. Something that someone's hacked out quickly, is warty as hell, but works well enough that it remains in place - warts and all for years
2. Something that is meticulously planned, where they use all the expensive resources, consultant, and tools. Takes forever, comes in late, over budget, and doesn't actually work, so it ends up getting scrappped.
Actually, there's a third category. Project developed less formally, more-or-less in time frame, proves functional but gets cancelled right as it's going into production for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of the software (e.g. change of management). Those are the ones I work on. But I figure I'm cursed, so unless someone tells me otherwise, I won't consider that representative.
Some say that outsourced projects don't work that way, that time and costs are held to but that the people don't exercise any imagination, so the end result is what the user asked for and not what the user actually needs (which are never the same thing - in part because if you change what a user can use, you change what how they work in unanticipated ways). Anyway, as to the imagination factor, unlike the 3 types of projects I mentioned above, I have no concrete knowledge.
I learned from one highly-measured project that the programmers had a fairly accurate idea of how long it took to produce "X" amount of code. Where they failed was in underestimating the required amount of code by half. In the mean time, the users and management are pressing to be given a schedule that conforms to what they want as opposed to what it's actually going to take. And even in less stressful times than these, that pressure was pretty intense.
Or, as I like to say, the deadliest words in the trade begin with "All you have to do is..."
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