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Need information about UK/Germany

 
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Hi All,

I have long term plans to settle/work in UK/Germany. I have 3.5 years of experience in J2EE presently working in HP. Can you people tell me what is the work culture, environment, treatment for Indians, pay factros in UK and Germany. Please also discuss about job opportunities in both countries.

Thanks & Regards,
Ganesh.
 
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Germany especially and the UK as well to some degree have high unemployment in the IT industry.
Unless you have exceptional skills or more than 10 years experience you can pretty much forget about competing with the locals on the job market.

It's slightly easier in the UK as there is a large Indian/Pakistani minority there and you already speak the language, but the stiff competition remains.

There is also an increasing sentiment in Europe against foreigners stealing our jobs.
This is aimed at the moment mostly at eastern Europeans in low-pay jobs (Polish truckers and construction workers, Czech daylabourers in agriculture, things like that) and jobs being offshored, but expect to take quite some flak.

I do know that if I were in a position to hire someone, I'd look for a native first, and so will most Europeans.
That way the money stays in Europe, which is a small benefit to our ailing economies which are drained too much by jobs moving to cheap labour countries already.
 
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The important thing is to separate fact, fiction and opinion, which is not always easy online, so trust anything you read online at your own peril. Some points to ponder, in no particular order:
  • If you have long-range plans, then the cyclical nature of economies should not be of much concern to you; of course, it is easier to set up shop during a boom.
  • IT is still growing, and good people are always in demand.
  • Countries that put off labor-market liberalisation and immigration easing now, are simply prolonging their period of slow economic growth, and will do it later anyway.
  • Although people in Germany generally speak English, just about anyone in a German company will be expected to be fluent in German.
  • There is not a sizeable Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi community in Germany, like there is in the UK.
  • While there are discussions about job migration to other countries, it's not anywhere near the level of noise and political action that it is elsewhere, e.g. in the USA.

  • I think the above are facts and opinions, not fiction, but see the first paragraph about online information.
    [ April 24, 2006: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]
     
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    UK market is already crowded with Indian programmers.
    Germany is cheaper than UK and still remains a good place for long term settlement.

    Recently UK has tightened its immigration rules.
     
    Jeroen T Wenting
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    sorry Ulf, but that's fact not fiction.
    Sure the industry is growing (again), but there are still large groups of unemployed people any foreigner is going to compete against, locals who know the local culture and are often willing to work for peanuts to have any work at all.

    And don't try to tell me that's just a hoax, I have friends in Germany in that situation. They have a decade or so of experience but can't find a job because there's just nothing to be had unless you're a 15 year old with a doctorate and 20 years of experience with the relevant tools.

    I've also friends in the UK, they're looking to leave the country because (in part) the jobmarket.

    Market "liberalisation" in effect means turning your entire local workforce out onto the street and replacing them with cheap foreign labour.
    In the short term that means increased profits, in the long run you destroy your economy because noone has any buying power left except the (mostly foreign) shareholders in your larger companies (those companies that don't rely on local sales).
    That's the reality, rather than the much-hyped propaganda from Brussels.
     
    Ulf Dittmer
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    Jeroen, I wasn't talking about your post specifically, just that this is in general an area where where a lot misleading and opinionated information is published as fact.

    There is certainly a good deal of unemployment in IT for various reasons, but there are also plenty of open positions, although possibly not where one is looking for them geographically. Mobility is important these days (as is networking, in which locals have a better position).

    That labor market liberalisation means replacing a workforce with foreigners is not a given. There is plenty that can be done here that has little bearing on immigration or off-shoring (e.g. the new youth employment contract in France, or the discussion about high taxes on labor in Germany). And that is totally leaving aside the fact that the population at large (and thus the workforce in the long term) is shrinking in several European countries, and immigration will be necessary to maintain current standards of living.
    [ April 24, 2006: Message edited by: Ulf Dittmer ]
     
    M Movilogo
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    UK market is already crowded with Indian programmers.
    Germany is cheaper than UK and still remains a good place for long term settlement.

    Recently UK has tightened its immigration rules.
     
    Jeroen T Wenting
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    Of course there's always a place for foreigners to fill positions where no locals are available, but in the current labour market in Europe those positions just don't exist.
    There are more than enough locals more than willing and capable to fill any job opening (though some may need training).
    The only reason to take foreigners instead is because you can hire 3 Poles or Romanians for the price of a single Dutch or German person, and get them on contract terms that would be illegal for locals (no social security, pension fund, etc., eternal shortterm contracts instead of having to give a permanent position after a number of iterations).

    And for those contracts Poles and Romanians are a lot more suitable than Indians, because when you kick them out they just drive home and you don't have to spend money on airplane tickets to get them into the country either (and with the EU open borders, there are no visas and work permits to arrange for either).
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