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TCS confesses that H1Bs are paid less

 
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".....
"Our wage per employee is 20-25 percent lesser than US wage for a similar employee," Vandrevala said. "Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It's a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there's nothing wrong in that. �

TCS confession
 
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In comparison a fresh graduate in the Indian IT industry is paid 2$ an hour in India (given the best case scenario that he/she works 8 hours a day). So people wont mind. Besides other IT companies also offer a similar package.
 
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Hi Arjunkumar !

"Our wage per employee is 20-25 percent lesser than US wage for a similar employee," Vandrevala said. "Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. It's a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and there's nothing wrong in that. �

Yes, this week there was an awful lot of articles, mainly Indians, about such "revelation" (I believed it was a well known fact instead).
Here are just some such links :

1
2
3
4
5
6

Anyway this is utterly hypocrytical, when companies whine for more H1B because "local talent is not available" they all lie, it is of course only a matter of paying less. The most obvious lier is Microsoft, who complained for years being unable to hire for lack of H1B talents but very recently hired 16% more skilled people in a few weeks to counter Google. By which miracle these hundreds of skilled people who had not been available for years became suddenly available in quantity in a few weeks ? All liers.

Best regards.
 
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Yes, this week there was an awful lot of articles, mainly Indians, about such "revelation" (I believed it was a well known fact instead).
Here are just some such links :



Eric's links with my comments:
  • 1 Identical information to first article
  • 2 Identical information to first article
  • 3 Identical information to first article
  • 4 Heading does not match content
  • 5 Document not found
  • 6 Identical information to first article with really bad pop-ups
  • So there has been no data added by posting these 6 links. There has been no extra proof added beyond the statements by TCS' and IEEE.

    Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:Anyway ... [rant deleted]. The most obvious lier is Microsoft, who complained for years being unable to hire for lack of H1B talents but very recently hired 16% more skilled people in a few weeks to counter Google. By which miracle these hundreds of skilled people who had not been available for years became suddenly available in quantity in a few weeks ?

    Many companies, Microsoft included, have a tough interview process. Microsoft's (as with a few others) can last all day (6 or 7 seperate interviews in one day). With Microsoft at least, if you fail one of the interviews you dont get to work for them - simple.

    Change that process, or lower the standard of questions asked, and all of a sudden the thousands who are rejected might suddenly pass the lower requirements.

    To give you an example - if a medical school was complaining that it was hard to get suitable trainee doctors for years, then suddenly changed their GPA requirement from 3.5 down to 3.3 then they might suddenly appear to have "found" more potential suitable trainee doctors.

    By the way - I am not saying that the article is wrong, just answering some of the issues raised by your post.

    Regards, Andrew
    [ September 09, 2006: Message edited by: Andrew Monkhouse ]
     
    Eric Lemaitre
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    Hi Andrew !

    So there has been no data added by posting these 6 links. There has been no extra proof added beyond the statements by TCS' and IEEE.

    You are right, many articles are duplicated, but I wasn't talking about statements themselves but about the quantity of articles published by many different medias, even if the article is reprinted each time. It is strange that so many medias decided to cover such already well know fact all at the same time.

    Change that process, or lower the standard of questions asked, and all of a sudden the thousands who are rejected might suddenly pass the lower requirements.
    ...
    By the way - I am not saying that the article is wrong, just answering some of the issues raised by your post.


    I completely agree and accept fair critics, but IMHO it is still not relevant in such case. Now IT companies are worldwide, they have subsidiaries everywhere, especially in India and China where talents are booming. So when they state they need more H1B to bring talent localy they simply lie, there is no other word, for when any talent is needed they can always easily hire it in one of their subsidiaries without any visa issue, and even if talents are no longer available it means they are not available anyway everywhere so raising visa cap won't help either. The only single reason for H1B nowadays is to pay lower wages, nothing else, it was not the case before but it is the case nowadays since about 2002.

    Best regards.
     
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    Eric ,

    Sorry but I completely disagree with you that as subsidiaries can hire the people locally they do not need people on H1B .What if they need the people near to US client (In service companies)or lets say to work with US teams(in product companies) ?? Also , do you mean to say if they required to work in US timezone then , this talented people will work in their night shifts from India and China ???
     
    Eric Lemaitre
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    Hi Rajesh !

    Sorry but I completely disagree with you that as subsidiaries can hire the people locally they do not need people on H1B . What if they need the people near to US client (In service companies)or lets say to work with US teams (in product companies) ?? Also , do you mean to say if they required to work in US timezone then , this talented people will work in their night shifts from India and China ???

    We are not talking about the same thing, I was talking about hiring really skilled people, among the best 10%, which implies either foreign hiring in a subsidiary or "serious" US labor visa such as GC or L1. I don't consider H1B relevant for hiring of best skilled people for H1B is so screwed process now that no one would seriously consider using it for a career except if he is desparate to go to US at any price, because a really good Asian (Indian or Chinese typically) will allways have local offers much better for his career than any US H1B offer which now turned to pure low-end exploitation at lower wages.

    Before 2002 H1B was really used as intented, to hire temporary most skilled people lacking in US, a kind of "pre-GC" because ultimate goal was very often to emigrate to US. Nowadays it is not any longer used as such. Since about 2002 H1B is used almost exclusively by bodyshoppers who will exploit candidates by making them work much harder than natives at much lower price, in IT field at least. This remains completely legal anyway, considering present state of law. One even saw wages accepted by USCIS at one third only of average local salary for equivalent position since states offer fresher positions at extremely low salary to natives, so matching was legaly sensible. All immigration lawyers clearly state one must wait 1 year and a half after petition deposit to be allowed to employ someone on H1B unless you pay extra fees to accelerate process (how much and by how much ?), so I don't consider H1B as a serious way of hiring skilled anyone one really needs at all, for who could seriously consider waiting some 18 mounths to employ someone ?

    By advance I am not saying H1B staff are not serious people, I say H1B itself is presently a completely screwed process prone to exploitation for lower wages, a real bodyshopping designed tool as it is used right now. It wasn't designed for such goal ago, but is has drifted to such use through complete administration leniency towards IT industry excesses.

    This is why the hiring I was talking about was through "serious" visa as L1 or GC or foreign hiring so without visa issue. Microsoft was able to hire 16% more very skilled people in a matter of a few weeks when it had to counter Google, so surely not through H1B.

    Please don't consider I despise people hired through H1B : I have just been offered myself one such opportunity, and I am really balanced between accepting (clearly so as to become US citizen later) and making my own IT company (already officially exists on paper). H1B is completely a screwed mess, but for many it is the only way to come to US even trhough clear exploitation, so I don't despise anybody, I might be interested myself.

    Please note too that there is another intersting JavaRanch discussion there : India attracts Western tech talent which explains how to employ as many aliens as you want without any visa cap issue, through using a local native integrator to finalize the remote work of alien developers, so your "mandatory US location near client" is much less relevant IMHO.

    Best regards.
     
    Andrew Monkhouse
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    Hi Eric,

    Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
    It is strange that so many medias decided to cover such already well know fact all at the same time.

    Not at all - the original poster pointed out the press release from the IEEE sent out last Wednesday. Given that it was a press release, the chances of the press picking it up is fairly high. Given that the press release explicitly talks about a company paying less to Indian employees, it is hardly surprising that the 6 Indian newspapers you quoted published it.

    Regards, Andrew
     
    Eric Lemaitre
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    Hi Andrew !

    Hi Eric, Not at all - the original poster pointed out the press release from the IEEE sent out last Wednesday. Given that it was a press release, the chances of the press picking it up is fairly high. Given that the press release explicitly talks about a company paying less to Indian employees, it is hardly surprising that the 6 Indian newspapers you quoted published it.

    Perhaps, but this is not a scoop at all.
    US IEEE has been complaining for years about the recent bad drift of H1B, and has proposed many reforms to enhance the process, such as (from memory) :
    _ jobs positions centralized by government with real relevance checks.
    _ fixed minimum wages at the median local salary, in clear mandatory paying the alien H1B as much as any US citizen for the same skills.
    _ use H1B as pre-GC, so automatic GC after some years of satisfactory work for alien.

    These reforms would eliminate the very bad "cheap" labor turn the H1B has taken now and would make it active again in its role of bringing real not cheap talent which localy lacks in US. Adopting these would be a scoop. But stating H1B are paid much less because they are used as cheap labor is no scoop at all.

    So I still don't get it, why such a well known fact would deserve such media frenzy ?

    Best regards.
     
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    What's the furore if H1Bs are paid less?

    Without H1B, ordinary Indians will not have chance to work in USA and enjoying a good lifestyle there.

    Also, it ensures that lazy Americans will have to learn accepting "normal" wage depending on their capability else the job will go to foreigners!

    When you do shopping, don't you look for best quality with cheaper price?
     
    Eric Lemaitre
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    Hi Movilogo !

    What's the furore if H1Bs are paid less?

    Must be "future" instead of "furore", I presume ?
    Well IT future of India seems not bad at all, as if Indians are not paid enough on H1B their interest will simply be to make their career in India. India pays much less, but as cost of life is much lower too you can have a much better life in India right now than in US and spare more money despite lower salary for the very same IT position.
    Going to US for indecent wages is good for bodyshoppers but bad for Indians, while making career in India itself which is a booming country is bad for bodyshoppers but good for Indians, so where do you see any real issue ?

    Without H1B, ordinary Indians will not have chance to work in USA and enjoying a good lifestyle there.

    The testimony of Indian Javaranchers now in US will be helpful, but now that it is clear that H1B in IT field has turned since 2002 to exploitation for much lower wages, it is not clear at all going to US with H1B through bodyshopper (they must the the only H1B sponsors remaining nowadays) would be a chance at all. Rather stay in India, develop your skills, then if possible found your own IT company, and you will be able to go in any country and will have a much better life than what you could ever have achieved in US through H1B. Indian Javaranchers could confirm, but lifestyle in US through bodyshoppers must probably be not good at all.

    Also, it ensures that lazy Americans will have to learn accepting "normal" wage depending on their capability else the job will go to foreigners!

    First, the term "lazy Americans" is a rude word, don't employ it, stick to "be nice rule". You should make public excuses for this one IMHO.
    Then you can work much less but produce much more thanks to productivity gains, so it is not because people work less in raw hours number that they are not productive or "lazy". Especially in IT field some developers are so good it is even worth paying them 2 times more than employing 5 foreigners to do the same job.
    What is more many massive offshoring projects launched by pointy haired bosses were decided with pure cost-killing goals in mind without any consideration for local strategy, and many failed finaly costing more than what they would have cost locally. But they would have been planned anyway, even if locals had not been "lazy" and extremely productive.
    And finally you cannot state Americans will have to learn accepting "normal" wages, for wages is a pure societal issue which has sense in US only. Stating any country has too high or too low wages is irrelevant, for wages rely on cost of life which is self balanced, when products are too expensive for local wages they cannot be sold so their price gets lower, and if it is not enough products will simply disappear from local market.

    When you do shopping, don't you look for best quality with cheaper price?

    But ensuring always decreasing cheaper price implies the exploitation of someone at one moment. So wonder about it, when productivity is no longer enough to both increase quality and lower price then employees exploitation is the simplest remaining option. Unfair system when it goes too far, so why would you complain Indian H1B being paid less afterwards as it answers to the very same logic, lowering costs at any price for gaining contracts and boost profits on the back of (H1B in this case) employees ?

    Best regards.
     
    Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
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