• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other Pie Elite all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Ron McLeod
  • Paul Clapham
  • Liutauras Vilda
Sheriffs:
  • paul wheaton
  • Rob Spoor
  • Devaka Cooray
Saloon Keepers:
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • Carey Brown
  • Frits Walraven
  • Tim Moores
Bartenders:
  • Mikalai Zaikin

what skills pay the most/biggest need

 
Greenhorn
Posts: 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm considering going back into developing, after doing mortgages for the past 5 years. I have 15 years professional coding experience. I did java since a year after it came out up until about 9/11.

I'm looking to land a job in the U.S. (Michigan) where I live. I'm wondering what skills pay the most right now. I know Java/C++/and PHP. Been a web developer for the most part, but also have done client apps. Moderate SQL.

Looking around on dice.com there seems to be a large need in this area for j2ee/java beans/ and java in general.

Can anyone help me with the following? I realize that it's dependent on the area you live in, but opinions are welcome.

What tends to pay the most? like general java. or j2ee?
What are the best/most common APIs to learn? I'm sure this has changed drastically in the last 4-5 years.
What has the largest need for developers. I got an idea reading dice, but wouldnt mind hearing from here.
Is it better to be developing GUI apps or web site applications?


Anything else that someone feels like sharing would be helpful.
 
Author
Posts: 6055
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by kireol teveril:
I'm wondering what skills pay the most right now.



Good presentation skills, communication (oral and written), team work, ability to sell. I'd focus on those if yo0u want the best bang for your buck. Intelligence of course is often well compensated, but for most people we're fixed with what we have and can't change it much.

--Mark
 
Saloon Keeper
Posts: 27763
196
Android Eclipse IDE Tomcat Server Redhat Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you're simply interested in raw income, forget Java and become a SAP consultant - unless things are a lot different up there than down here.

And yes, although the old APIs are still necessary, we add a new layer evey couple of months. Eventually I figure the old clich� about any 10-year old kid can create enterprise applications in 2-3 days in exchange for pirated videogames will have to be retired because it'll take more than 10 years just to learn them all.

Assuming the scripting languages don't take over instead. Then we'll have to start adding APIs all over again.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 51
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe ability to sell is one of key factor to be a pay master.
As far as my understanding, don�t stick with any technology.
Be JACK of ALL [Technology] and MASTER of at least one FUNCTIONAL DOMAIN area. This will be easiest way to get what you want.


--Ram
 
Rancher
Posts: 43081
77
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mark's advice is right on target. As for Java specifics, there is little client-side Java (GUI) jobs to be had, compared to the server side. Knowledge of servlets/JSPs/JDBC is paramount. A few more JEE APIs (like JavaMail) will help, as will the more common frameworks. Struts is widely used, although it has peaked some time ago. Hibernate is hot, too.
 
kireol teveril
Greenhorn
Posts: 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
All good stuff so far guys. I have great presentation skills, team work, communication, etc.

But what do you guys mean by sales? That's what I've done the last 5 years is sales on mortgages, and well, it's a bit scary the power I possess now over most people with sales skills. but how would this help other than getting me a job? Do they expect us coders to sling our code too?!
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 598
3
jQuery Google App Engine Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think they meant to say you should have ability like Sales manager.
By the way, you need not worry about selling your code,software sales
executive do that for you.(I think you already know about it)
But if you want to be self-employed like Adam bien (Java Champion), you have
to sell your code or you can hire secretary(must be female).
I have no experience at all,so sorry for my mistakes, if any.
 
Mark Herschberg
Author
Posts: 6055
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sales people are typically some of the highest paid people in a company, as they can be tied directly to revenue.

Someone who has both sales skills and engineering skills will be in very high demand and well compensated in a role that uses both.

--Mark
 
Greenhorn
Posts: 7
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
it is nice to hear that you are the old coder of java
i am not as experience as you to advice you
but stick to one technology and get perfection
perfection pays you more than that of others
 
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper
Posts: 27763
196
Android Eclipse IDE Tomcat Server Redhat Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think what Ram was saying was that to make the most income, you need to be able to sell yourself. Something, alas, that is easier for professional salesmen than introverted computer geeks.

Regardless, the better job you can do in persuading your target audience that you can ensure them Wonderful Things - or (and perhaps better yet) that only unless they accept you as a generously-compensated resource can they avoid Terrible Things - well, that's how you bring home the fat paychecks.

Leverage is how you get the moola. Salesmanship is how you maximize the leverage.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
...
Good presentation skills, communication (oral and written), team work, ability to sell. ...
--Mark



Mark is right.

Talking is much more important than coding. If all you can do is designing, coding, and debugging, you are a poor work bee. During the booming time (1999, 2000), I heard people were saying "talking is cheap", but it changes now.

It is almost true to all the businesses in this country.
It reminds me a real story that a top scientist in a top US research institute got $2K annual award for his contributions in biomedical science while a secretary (with an English BA) got $50K because she knows how to communicate (talking and writing) well within top government agencies.

Soft skills reward much more than the APIs.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1907
1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:


Soft skills reward much more than the APIs.


It can't be generalized.Mainly it depends on what you are working on.In the past I worked on project which involves minimal communication.I also worked on project which requires you to continiously interact with customers.So it varies alot.But yes,without soft skills you can't go ahead in cutomer centric projects.
 
Mark Herschberg
Author
Posts: 6055
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:

It can't be generalized.... But yes,without soft skills you can't go ahead in cutomer centric projects.



I disagree. The projects where a manager says "here are the specs, I'll see you in 6 months" are few and far between. For the most part you'll be working closing with others, both other engineers and those will who interact with the software.

--Mark
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1162
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Sales people are typically some of the highest paid people in a company, as they can be tied directly to revenue.

Someone who has both sales skills and engineering skills will be in very high demand and well compensated in a role that uses both.

--Mark


Then why isn't everyone doing it? I don't mean to ask that in an slighting way. What is it about sales that discourages so many people from making a career out of it?
 
kireol teveril
Greenhorn
Posts: 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Arvind Birla:

Then why isn't everyone doing it? I don't mean to ask that in an slighting way. What is it about sales that discourages so many people from making a career out of it?



Well, i've been doing sales for the last 5 years. and while i've managed to turn a tech career into a sales career (top 5 in company all 5 years out of 100 people) the uncertainty of a paycheck in 100% commission environment is scary to say the least.
 
Author
Posts: 3473
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Then why isn't everyone doing it? I don't mean to ask that in an slighting way. What is it about sales that discourages so many people from making a career out of it?



Also one needs to have the necessary soft skills to thrive in a commission driven environment. Similar to investment and starting your own business, where rewards can be great if everything goes well but there is an element of uncertainity and risk involved.
 
Mark Herschberg
Author
Posts: 6055
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Arvind Birla:

Then why isn't everyone doing it? I don't mean to ask that in an slighting way. What is it about sales that discourages so many people from making a career out of it?



You could say the same thing about engineering. US labor forecasts constantly point to a shortage of engineers, so why don't more US students go into engineering? In that case the reason is mostly lack ability or lack of interest.

With sales, it's a skill that not everyone has. It's also a skill that's hard to learn, I suspect most people either have it or they don't because fundamentally good sales skills are specific types of interpersonal skills. Even if someone has the skills, they may not want to do it because of the nature of the job, or the income volatility, or for other reasons. Also, many people don't realize how well sales pays relative to other jobs in the company. Most engineers for example graduate college with the highest starting salaries and stick with engineering so never consider sales.

I don't think there is anything about sales itself that discourages people. Engineer discourages people because usually it requires a degree or at least a non-trivial amount of training even for an entry level engineering job. An entry level sales job often has few requirements, but also promises very little pay--most of it is commission based.

--Mark
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 205
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

What tends to pay the most? like general java. or j2ee?



A knowledge of Java/J2EE in general is definitely required...but on top of that...the best way to be highly paid is to have the general knowledge, combined with VERY in-depth knowledge of a COTS product (SAP, PeopleSoft, Oracle Financials, WebSphere Portal).

Unfortunately, most of the cool open source stuff isn't as widely used at the large organizations (who tend to pay the most) such as Big Govt, Big Banking, Big Insurance, Big Healthcare etc as the big name COTS products.

When I say "In-depth", I mean a subject matter expert with deep deep knowledge of the product from installation to architecture to business logic to interface. Not just someone who's only worked on one tier of these products.

Those people are the hardest to find, and are required at the highest paying clients - it's only natural they're the highest paid.

The rub is, it takes years to become an expert at one of these products, and you have to get hired to work with these products before you can become an expert with one.
 
S. Palanigounder
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by James Ellis:


A knowledge of Java/J2EE in general is definitely required...but on top of that...the best way to be highly paid is to have the general knowledge, combined with VERY in-depth knowledge of a COTS product (SAP, PeopleSoft, Oracle Financials, WebSphere Portal).



But the demands for COTS is low compared to general J2EE plus some open source frameworks.
 
author
Posts: 23951
142
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

But the demands for COTS is low compared to general J2EE plus some open source frameworks.



This is a good point. This questions assumes that "pay the most" and "biggest need" are related, which it may not be.

General J2EE knowledge may have the "biggest need", but a lot of that need may be for commodity work. On the other hand, SAP knowledge is in the domain where they want the best, and willing to retain the best. So, if you are really good, companies are willing to pay you much more -- even though there are many untested developers (in the ERP domain) who are willing to take a lot less.

Henry
[ April 22, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]
 
arulk pillai
Author
Posts: 3473
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Your pay is related to


-- How much value you can add or contribute in terms of all aspects of the project. Just being a techie with Java or JEE expertise alone is not good enough.


-- Visibility of the project e.g. mission criticality, budget etc.

-- Type of organization E.g. Finance and insurance where IT is core part of the business. I worked for some organizations that valued having a small to medium size team with highly effective staff and consequently remunerating them with above market rates.


-- Supply/Demand: A few years back if you knew EJB, you could stand out from other candidates. Now a days you need to have other technical skills like integration with legacy systems, Agile development methodologies etc to stand out from the pack so that you can demand more.
 
S. Palanigounder
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe the compensation is market driven.

Let's say that you are very good and important to your company and you know a lot of your system, but your skills are not highly demanded by others. If you quited your job, it would be very hard for you to find another employer that needs your skills.

Why should your employer pays you more than others? There are also other things such as H1B and offshore that keep your salary at a level your boss
and your co-workers feel comfortable.

COTS have their niche market, but the technologies are not harder than others in J2EE.

Again, the most compensated skills are soft skills beside talking and writing:
Know your boss' birthday, sports, foods, habits, ...;
Remember the names of co-workers' spouse and children;
Remember the names of people in different departments even you just met them once;
Always smile even when you are unhappy;
Always dress nicely.
Do something to improve if you are not good looking.
....

Reserve some part of your brain for these things. If you were a nerd, you would be crushed without even knowing.
[ April 23, 2008: Message edited by: S. Palanigounder ]
 
Henry Wong
author
Posts: 23951
142
jQuery Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser VI Editor C++ Chrome Java Linux Windows
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Again, the most compensated skills are soft skills beside talking and writing:
Know your boss' birthday, sports, foods, habits, ...;
Remember the names of co-workers' spouse and children;
Remember the names of people in different departments even you just met them once;
Always smile even when you are unhappy;
Always dress nicely.
Do something to improve if you are not good looking.



That's your definitive list of soft skills? Sounds like a character right out of the stepford wives to me....

Soft skills are... Being able to understand what your clients (colleagues, customers, management, etc.) are talking about, and wants. Able to talk with your clients, so that you can understand what they are talking about and wants. And this is more than just translations -- as clients many times, don't know what they want.

Being able to present ideas. Being able to organize and sell ideas. Being able to anticipate ideas. Able to brainstorm when necessary. Able to facilitate or moderate when necessary. Able to be "devils advocate" when necessary. And yes, being able to be "cheerleader" when necessary. etc.

It is about the skills to being a valuable member of the team. It is not just being able to read a requirements doc, write documentation, look and smell good, and good at kissing arse.

Henry
[ April 27, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]
 
Mark Herschberg
Author
Posts: 6055
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Henry Wong:

That's your definitive list of soft skills? Sounds like a character right out of the stepford wives to me....



Hilarious :-)

I second Henry's comments (all of them).

--Mark
 
S. Palanigounder
Ranch Hand
Posts: 145
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Soft skills are... Being able to understand what your clients (colleagues, customers, management, etc.) are talking about, and wants. Able to talk with your clients, so that you can understand what they are talking about and wants. And this is more than just translations -- as clients many times, don't know what they want.

Being able to present ideas. Being able to organize and sell ideas. Being able to anticipate ideas. Able to brainstorm when necessary. Able to facilitate or moderate when necessary. Able to be "devils advocate" when necessary. And yes, being able to be "cheerleader" when necessary. etc.



These are still hard skills. When I was a kid, I was sent to a summer camp to learn these type of skills. It is part of your IQ.


... good at kissing arse.



This is one of the real soft skills and is part of your EQ. It is mostly inherited. I did not see a school or camp teaches that.

People with high EQs always win even their IQs are low.
[ May 16, 2008: Message edited by: S. Palanigounder ]
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic