China is at it again

[Andy Ceponis]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/24/us.taiwan.arms/index.html
First they crash into our plane, keep our military people hostage for weeks, still havent given back our plane, and now they are pissed at us again for selling weapons to Taiwan?
Wtf is wrong with them? They are complete fools. They treat us like shit, then get mad when we sell weapons to their enemies. I hope we end up selling them the more advanced battleships so they can get even more pissed.

[Ray Marsh]

You know, come to think of it, they never thanked us for keeping Clinton in office for 8 years so they could get all the information they needed to aim their ICBMs at us.
They got some nerve. At least we offer insincere apologies for something they did, so we can get our people back. Our manners may be shallow, but at least we try.

[Jane Griscti]

IMHO the US timing on this announcement was deliberate; the Chinese know it and so do the Taiwanese. The US is getting back at China for kicking sand in their face and the Taiwanese are benefiting; for now.
China's basically been a sleeping giant on the world scene ... they're starting to wake-up; the US is reminding them who's running the show. I'd be more impressed if they went toe to toe over Tibet ... but there's no economic advantage in that.

[Greg Harris]

remember that Taiwan is the place where China's original nationalist gov't fled to when the communist gov't took over... this is still a very delicate issue. for us (the US) this all goes back to what started Vietnam... the Truman Docterine. we vowed not to allow Communism to spread any more than it had by that point.
i was there with the Navy in '96 and '98 helping to train the Taiwanese sailors, and also as part of a "show of force" to China. we have been supporting them for a long time and have sold ships before as well. this was in the works before our plane was taken out, so it is more of a coincidense than timing.
the fact that we are not selling the "Aegis" ships to them has nothing to do with what happened with China, but more to do with sharing too much of our technology. and, that is actually a better deal for Taiwan because they can have these ships NOW as opposed to 3 or 4 years from now.

[Shama Khan]

I am tempted to say "Here goes America putting its nose where it doesn't belong."
But wait don't get mad at me because I take it back because I know America, at times, is also invited to put its nose into places (ie. Balkans, Middle East, Kashmir).
Not to change the topic but here is a quote describing U.S.A.
Prosperity is the surest breeder of insolence I know.
- Mark Twain's Travels with Mr. Brown

[Greg Harris]

sometimes when i was floating off the coast of iraq i wondered why i was there... i mean, why in the world would anyone want to stand 7 hour watches every 5 hours in 120 degree heat?
the answer is: if we (the US) did not stick our noses in iraq's business, Saddam would have run over Kuwait and then moved on to Saudi or Iran.
China has some serious nuclear power now, so we should definitely be concerened about what they are doing. fortunately for us, they do not have the capability to land on our shores (however they do have a new ballistic missile submarine)... but, that is also the reason they will use Taiwan to draw us into a conflict.
if we just quit bothering with it, what do you think would happen in these places? how long do you think it would be before Saddam was actually able to launch an attack on the US?

[hemanth kumar]

Originally posted by Greg Harris:
sometimes when i was floating off the coast of iraq i wondered why i was there... i mean, why in the world would anyone want to stand 7 hour watches every 5 hours in 120 degree heat?
the answer is: if we (the US) did not stick our noses in iraq's business, Saddam would have run over Kuwait and then moved on to Saudi or Iran.

China has some serious nuclear power now, so we should definitely be concerened about what they are doing. fortunately for us, they do not have the capability to land on our shores (however they do have a new ballistic missile submarine)... but, that is also the reason they will use Taiwan to draw us into a conflict.

Greg
Do u think US would have rushed to save Kuwait if that region was not the oil reserves of the World.
C'mon !!!
My 2 cents

[This message has been edited by hemanth kumar (edited April 25, 2001).]

[Thomas Paul]

Yeah and that's why we rushed into Kosovo too. After all doesn't Kosovo have the world's largest oil reserves? Oh, wait... it doesn't does it?

[Greg Harris]

good point, thomas! i do not need to say more.
foolish or not, we are still abiding by the Truman Docterine (see above)... we are not going to allow tyrants like Saddam to take over other countries, especially if they stand to gain power from it.
also, i went to Eritrea / Etheopia when they had a little fight back in '98... nobody heard about that over here because they do not have ANY resources we care about.
so, yes. we would have gone over there (Kuwait)... maybe not with 4 aircraft carriers, but we would have gone.

[Anonymous]

Frankly, do you guys still think that America is at the helm of affairs here? America should wake up to the reality and see that the days of America as Super Power are over. China is the new Super Power. China is dominating every country's economy in the world, with its cheap and better quality items. This has always been true of America and now India, the next biggest market in the world is reeling under pressure from Chinese imports. China has already established its prowess as an economic super power. Our foreign policy is the best in the world. Encouraged by the govt., Chinese people attacked the US Embassy in Beijing and there was not one damn thing that the US could do about it. China is blamed for stealing defense secrets from the US. What's wrong with it? If America can not hang on to its defense secrets, is it China's fault? China already has missiles that can strike most of the cities in the US. America better recognize China's might and start respecting her.

[Shama Khan]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Yeah and that's why we rushed into Kosovo too. After all doesn't Kosovo have the world's largest oil reserves? Oh, wait... it doesn't does it?

U.S. didn't step into Kosovo and even Somalia until it was almost too late. The genocide in Kosovo had already occurred.
The only reason U.S. is invited is because it calls itself the super power. Throughout history, even in the world wars, U.S. has been reluctant to join in in protecting the innocents.
In terms of Kuwait, U.S. moved in before being invited to protect its interests. What a way to get so many American troops into the middle east (never to leave!) and still keep charging the Saudis for it. A wonderful plan indeed.
I hope you see the difference.

[This message has been edited by Shama Khan (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Read Noam Chomsky. . .

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Steven Chen:
Frankly, do you guys still think that America is at the helm of affairs here? America should wake up to the reality and see that the days of America as Super Power are over. China is the new Super Power. China is dominating every country's economy in the world, with its cheap and better quality items. This has always been true of America and now India, the next biggest market in the world is reeling under pressure from Chinese imports. China has already established its prowess as an economic super power. Our foreign policy is the best in the world. Encouraged by the govt., Chinese people attacked the US Embassy in Beijing and there was not one damn thing that the US could do about it. China is blamed for stealing defense secrets from the US. What's wrong with it? If America can not hang on to its defense secrets, is it China's fault? China already has missiles that can strike most of the cities in the US. America better recognize China's might and start respecting her.

Not a formal or complete definition, but a superpower has always had the following properties: incredible industrial resources, the ability to project an overwhelming military force anywhere in the world, a large sphere of influence, economic strength and stability.
The only country in the world with all these properties is the U.S. You can also factor in our incredible infrastructure.
There is no other power in the world that may project a massive military force. This is because of the U.S.'s naval and air power. A perfect example of this force projection was the Gulf War. No other country in the world has the capability to place the amount of military power and resources half way around the world in the amount of time that we did. No other country. The USSR used to have sizeable force projection, but their economy can no longer support this.
Industrial might. Very few countries in the world domestically posess the variety of vital natural resources that the US does. We don't even need the world's oil, but we purchase it in order to keep our prices low and maintain our strategic oil reserve. Not only do we posess the resources, we posess the industrial infrastructure necessary to use the resources. Japan during WWII had powerful industry, but they lacked the resources. This is one reason they started the war with us. I don't know what the situation is in China, but I have a feeling they do not natively posess the amount of natural resources, or the means to use them, in order to shift their industry into a war time footing comparable to the US. Russia on the other hand posesses the natural resources, but can't use them.
Sphere of influence. This is important in drawing on support from other countries. The USSR had a significant sphere of influence. The US is the only country in the world with a sphere of influence as far reaching as it is. What influence does China hold? North Korea and Pakistan maybe. Not much else. When the USSR was in it's hayday, the wolrd could almost neatly be divided up amongst those two spheres of influence. Nowadays there is pro-US, and then everyone else. And the 'everyone else' nowadays are usually the have-not countries who resent the position the US holds in the world.
The Chinese do have a decent economy I believe, especially after getting Hong Kong back (the mainlaind Chinese can take ZERO credit for the prosperity of Hong Kong). Of course their economic might and influence does not come remotely close to rivaling the US. However since they effectively practice slave labour it is a simple matter to produce cheap goods.
As for nukes, I may be wrong but I believe Chinese nukes can reach our west coast. Having nukes doesn't make a country a super power. Ask India, or any of the former Soviet republics who now have nukes.
So really China is not worthy the respect they think they deserve. They are not a super power, maybe someday, but probably not. They can project power over the China Sea, that's about it. Basically they are a backwards country ruled by some old scared communists. If the government were to truly give freedom to its people, that would go a long way towards making it a great country. It would also make the point of Taiwan moot. Instead this pathetic excuse for a government jails scholars for no other reason than that they are US residents, trumping up spy claims and leaving young children without parents. This is the same country that rams a fighter aircraft into an unarmed surveillance plane, forces it down into Chinese territory, and then acts like a bunch of children over the whole thing.
Foreign policy? China has no rational foreign policy. You consider a government feeding its people false information and encouraging them to commit acts of violence foreign policy? That's absurd, as is the Chinese government. Foreign policy to the Chinese is only aimed at doing anything that is counter to us. I'm glad they think so highly of the US to expend that much effort on being beligerant towards us, but China simply doesn't matter enough to the US for us to expend the same amount of effort.
I have zero problem with the Chinese people as I know they want the same things in life that we do. But the government is laughable. It amazes me how even in this age of the internet so many Chinese seem oblivious as to what their country is doing to its people. I mark it down to simple nationalism, probably due to the communist propaganda that was most likely fed to many Chinese since they were children.
Bottom line, if your country wants respect it needs to earn it, with actions, not blustering.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Kirill NKaufmann]

Originally posted by Steven Chen:
China is dominating every country's economy in the world, with its cheap and better quality items. .

Better quality?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Shama Khan:
I am tempted to say "Here goes America putting its nose where it doesn't belong."
But wait don't get mad at me because I take it back because I know America, at times, is also invited to put its nose into places (ie. Balkans, Middle East, Kashmir).
Not to change the topic but here is a quote describing U.S.A.
Prosperity is the surest breeder of insolence I know.
- Mark Twain's Travels with Mr. Brown

Not to change the topic but just to comment on the quote. Not a bad quote I think. But reflecting a little more, I think our attitude hearkens back to our frontiere origins. Since before the birth of this country we have had to fight for everything we have. We have carved our destinies out of the wilderness recently enough that I think it still has an important affect on our attitude. Interestingly enough the two countries in the world that I think attitude wise are most like us, Australia and Canada, also have frontiere origins.
Just a thought.

[Rahul Rathore]

Originally posted by Steven Chen:
Our foreign policy is the best in the world. Encouraged by the govt., Chinese people attacked the US Embassy in Beijing ...

What was that?

[Andy Ceponis]

China a superpower? Thats a laugh. China treats their people like slaves and the people are either too brainwashed to see the truth or they just dont want to see it. The government is so ass backwards that without all of the exports it would probably collapse.
Everything i have ever bought that was made in china has fallen apart. The word quality hasnt made it over there yet.

[Andrew Shafer]

You consider a government feeding its people false information and encouraging them to commit acts of violence foreign policy?

Ahh. . .reminds me of my days in the good ole US military.
Foreign Policy is pageantry for the ruling class.
[This message has been edited by Andrew Shafer (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Shama Khan:
In terms of Kuwait, U.S. moved in before being invited to protect its interests. What a way to get so many American troops into the middle east (never to leave!) and still keep charging the Saudis for it. A wonderful plan indeed.

So let me get this straight... you are claiming that the US shipped troops to Saudi Arabia without the Saudi's permission? And how exactly did we do this? Try to get your history straight. The Kuwaitis begged us to come and rescue their country from invasion and the Saudis immediatley opened their doors to us to keep the Iraqis from invading them. Over the next 6 months we sent American troops to Saudi Arabia.

[Angela Poynton]

This may be slightly off topic, but don't forget that the US weren't alone in the Gulf, or Kosovo or many of the other places mentioned here. You guys may have had the majority of the manpower but other countried were there too ...!
America may be the only remaining "Superpower" but does that make whatever they say right? I'm not saying China is right in this case ... nor am i saying they are wrong. What I'm trying to point out is that very often America gets so blinded by their potential power that they tend to want the world to follow their lead. I'm sorry but if every country was like America ... or any other nation became the benchmark for the rest of the world for that matter, the world would be a very dull place.
China and America have two very different cultures, coming from two very different histories. Neither way of living can be considered right or wrong, they are just different.
My view, the key to peace is not forcing one country to be like another, but to learn to accept and respect the differences they have and build on what common goals they do have.
[This message has been edited by Angela Poynton (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Ahh... America the blinded
Brings a tear to the eye

[Greg Harris]

Originally posted by Shama Khan:
In terms of Kuwait, U.S. moved in before being invited to protect its interests. What a way to get so many American troops into the middle east (never to leave!) and still keep charging the Saudis for it. A wonderful plan indeed.

my brother-in-law is Kuwaiti... his mother, father and a sister still live there. i was there with the US Navy in 1996 and 1998. believe me, they appreciate us more than you can imagine! the recreational facilities on the Army base in Kuwait get FREE food... all i had to do was sign my name to accout for it and i could have all the hamburgers, hotdogs, french fries (no beef added) and ice cream i wanted... that does not sound like the actions of a country that does not appreciate our help now does it?

[Greg Harris]

Originally posted by Steven Chen:
the days of America as Super Power are over. China is the new Super Power.

whatever...

Encouraged by the govt., Chinese people attacked the US Embassy in Beijing and there was not one damn thing that the US could do about it.

and this is something a country should be proud of? this does not sound very honorable to me.

China already has missiles that can strike most of the cities in the US. America better recognize China's might and start respecting her.

i was an Electronic Warfare Specialist in the US Navy, so it was my job to know everything about your missiles... sure, you have some ICBM's... but if you launch those, we launch ours, Russia launches theirs and the world is over. nobody wins that game...
// this line removed as suggested by Andrew... sorry.

[This message has been edited by Greg Harris (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Greg Harris]

Originally posted by Andrew Shafer:
Ahh. . .reminds me of my days in the good ole US military.

what branch were you in Andrew? i was in the Navy from '94 to '98... i went to the Gulf in '96 (Desert Strike) and '98 (UN Weapons Inspector Crisis).
thank you for serving your country!

[This message has been edited by Greg Harris (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Don't get too invincible on us now. Reality has a funny way of making the impossible happen and biting the experts in the @$$.
The Titanic, Pearl Harbor, the 4 minute mile, the 2001 Lakers. . . the list goes on and on.

[Anonymous]

from the looks of this thread so many Americans have their heads up their own @$$e$...

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
China and America have two very different cultures, coming from two very different histories. Neither way of living can be considered right or wrong, they are just different.

So there is nothing wrong with gunning students down in the street because they dare to ask for freedom. There is nothing wrong with putting people in prison because they have different political views. There is nothing wrong with forcing prisoners to perform back breaking slave labor at the threat of death. There is nothing wrong with arresting and imprisoning people because they practice a religion that doesn't kiss the government's ass. There is nothing wrong with deliberately starving your people. There is nothing wrong with forcing women to have abortions. So in the opinion of Angela, the 4 freedoms that some of her relatives no doubt died fighting to defend is nothing more than just an alternative political system. I have to admit that I am shocked. The leaders of China are criminals. If this was 1946 they would be tried at Nuremberg and hanged. The idea that someone can compare the freedoms enjoyed in the west to the slavery suffered in China and say that China is no worse or better than the USA simply boggles my mind.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Oddjob:
from the looks of this thread so many Americans have their heads up their own @$$e$...

Instead of demonstrating how insufferably ignorant you are, why not give an example of where the Americans on this thread have their heads up their asses.

[Thomas Paul]

To the person who thinks that Chinese goods are high quality... ROFLMAO. Chinese goods are cheap garbage. If they weren't so cheap, no one would buy them because they don't even stand up to the quality of other cheap goods made in other third world countries. Of course when you use slave labor to make your goods you can make them cheap and cheaply.
[This message has been edited by Thomas Paul (edited June 07, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Don't think the US government's proverbial poo-poo doesn't stink.
Remember Kent State? How doing syphilis tests on its own citizens? or maybe the fun radiation experiments? How about Japanese internment? Did I hear some nasty rumor about slavery in the US? The US takes political prisoners, we just don't tell people about it . . .
Cause freedom isn't free

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Andrew Shafer:

Don't think the US government's proverbial poo-poo doesn't stink.
Remember Kent State? How doing syphilis tests on its own citizens? or maybe the fun radiation experiments? How about Japanese internment? Did I hear some nasty rumor about slavery in the US? The US takes political prisoners, we just don't tell people about it . . .
Cause freedom isn't free

Every government has done things it should not be proud of. The difference in a government like ours is that when these things have happened we are not proud of them, as opposed to governments like China, Iraq, North Korea, USSR, Cuba, and countless others who have absolutley no problem with the way they behave.
What political prisoners do we take that we don't tell anyone about? You said it, at least back up your statements. While I in no way condone the unfortunate Kent State shootings, it must be remembered that it was the cowardly students there who created the situation, by amoung other things, bombing the ROTC building. Yes we did have slavery long ago, we saw the light and fought a war partly over it (the South saw threats of the abolition of slavery as an attack on its economy among other things). We have also committed other human rights incidents throughout our history (as has every other country in the world to varying degrees) that we are ashamed of.
I know our government is terrible and evil and all, as u seem to think, but our country does manage some great good every now and then. We are presently the world's largest supporter of human rights issues. We fight narcotics throughout the world. We perform great scientific research. We throw money at developing nations. What else should we do?
The thing that many non-Americans don't understand about our country is why we do what we do globally. The way I see it, America will always try to do what is in it's best interest. Along the way that may upset some people. We have the ability to actively promote what's in our own best interest. Most nations do not so they jealously look down on us. Is that a bad thing that we look aggressively to pretect our interest? Not if your American or a close ally. That is what you should want out of your government.
I've been in England, Germany, Japan, Turkey, Bosnia, Mexico, and various other European countries. And although I've liked things about each of them (especially England, awesome country, i could go back and live there for awhile) I've found that the way of life I prefer is back in the good ol U S of A. And yes I have spent enough time in each of these places to get some feel for them and I was not a tourist in most of them (excpet for Mexico and a couple European countries like France, Belgium, and the Netherlands). There wasn't much to like about Bosnia though btw, except that it was picturesque, but how surreal is it to walk into a bar that has a sign on the door that says "No Weapons in Bar after 18:00".
Many other countries in the world like to think that all Americans have no clue about the rest of the world around them either (particularly Europeans think this). I can't speak for the rest of the country but I know I probably have a better grasp of the world than most Europeans so that snobbish attitude doesn;t impress me (I've been told this by several Europeans btw).
There is no perfect country in the world. For me, the US is the closest to it. I can live the way I want to live here, and I can be prosperous if I work hard. What more can you ask for? And I am glad my country aggressively seeks to maintain my way of life, even if that may upset others.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Andrew Shafer:

Don't think the US government's proverbial poo-poo doesn't stink.
Remember Kent State? How doing syphilis tests on its own citizens? or maybe the fun radiation experiments? How about Japanese internment? Did I hear some nasty rumor about slavery in the US? The US takes political prisoners, we just don't tell people about it . . .
Cause freedom isn't free

Yes, I remember Kent State. A handful of scared National Guardsmen made a huge mistake and opened fire. They weren't oredered to do so by the government. It was a mistake. It was not the deliberate actions of the military. The syphilis tests were the actions of a small group of doctors. It was not the approved policy of the US government. When it was discovered it was ended immediately. Then it was widely reported in the press so that there is little chance that anything like it will happen again. Japanese interment occurred during a World War. I am not aware that China is at war with anyone other than their own citizens. Slavery? 150 years ago. And we fought a war to end it. Political prisoners? Name one.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So there is nothing wrong with gunning students down in the street because they dare to ask for freedom. There is nothing wrong with putting people in prison because they have different political views. There is nothing wrong with forcing prisoners to perform back breaking slave labor at the threat of death. There is nothing wrong with arresting and imprisoning people because they practice a religion that doesn't kiss the government's ass. There is nothing wrong with deliberately starving your people. There is nothing wrong with forcing women to have abortions. So in the opinion of Angela, the 4 freedoms that some of her relatives no doubt died fighting to defend is nothing more than just an alternative political system. I have to admit that I am shocked. The leaders of China are criminals. If this was 1946 they would be tried at Nuremberg and hanged. The idea that someone can compare the freedoms enjoyed in the west to the slavery suffered in China and say that China is no worse or better than the USA simply boggles my mind.[/B]

Hey I was trying to put a bit of a different perspective on things. I'm a great believer in looking at the bigger picture. Personally no I don't think all of those things are right, of course not. But equally I don't think dropping a nuclear bomb ..TWICE on Japan was right either. When I think of the innocent people most of whom were not even born when the bombs were dropped who are still suffering the after effects of that ... and the many more yet to come who will also suffer it makes me sick to my stomach!
Now, you may or may not know this, but actually I am what I have learned is known as a "Yankophile" I have alaways loved American culture, I've loved every minute I've spent over there and I hope to spead many more. But just as I don't agree with many of the things my government do or don't do I don't agree with some things America, or China, or Japan, or France, or South Africa or any other country do. My main worry is America trying to take over the world by enforcing their culture, and their values upon everyone else. I'm not saying England wasn't once guilty of this, but I wouldn't have agreed with that either.
[This message has been edited by Angela Poynton (edited June 08, 2001).]

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Greg Harris:
my brother-in-law is Kuwaiti... his mother, father and a sister still live there. i was there with the US Navy in 1996 and 1998. believe me, they appreciate us more than you can imagine!

One of the fondest moments of my life was driving through Kuwait city in May of 91. I was in the gulf with the Marine Corps during desert sheild and desert storm and no-one can tell me that we were only there for oil. Seeing the crowds and people in the streets of Kuwait city brought to mind thoughts of the old WWII movies of the French Liberation. People were lining the streets to get close to our vehicles as we drove by, parents actually held their babies up to Marines for them to touch and give them hugs and kisses. I still have a Kuwait flag that a woman gave me off of her car. She was driving beside us, I said nice flag, she got out of her car, said thank you, and gave it to me. As we left the city there was not a singe Marine who was unaffected by what we had just experienced. The initial thoughts may have been of oil and economics, but now all I think of is the gratitude of the people and the fact that, like Greg said, they genuinely appreciated what we had done for them. If you have great strength and power it is almost as bad not to use it as it would be to use it wrong.
Just my $.02
Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave Vick (edited June 08, 2001).]

[Greg Harris]

well put, Dave! i salute you for your service and wish i had been there a few years earlier. i served on the USS Tarawa (LHA-1) a "gator-frieghtor" that carried about 2,000 of you jarheads.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Greg Harris:
i served on the USS Tarawa (LHA-1) a "gator-frieghtor" that carried about 2,000 of you jarheads.

Have a friend that was on the Tarawa for a while. Maybe you met him, short hair, wore green a lot, always standing in line for chow. Actually, I think it was the Tarawa where he hid under a hummer on the well deck for 6 hours the day he got promoted. They finally caught him when he had to go to chow.
seriously, us 'jarheads' appreciate you 'squids' Except when the captain said we needed to conserve water. On the ocean!!

[This message has been edited by Dave Vick (edited June 08, 2001).]

[Greg Harris]

oh yea, i met him, i think they called him "Marine!"
we had a few problems with water during my 4 years. someone backwashed the jet fuel tank into the freshwater supply! imagine brushing your teeth with JP-5... or drinking it in your coffee.
we appreciated you jarheads until we got 150 enlisted females on the ship in '98... what do you think happens on a 6 month float when you have 2,000 Marines with nothing better to do and only 150 girls to chose from? that's right, we came back to san diego wtih 15 new jarheads! actually, the girls that got pregnant were flown home.
[This message has been edited by Greg Harris (edited June 08, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Yes, I remember Kent State. A handful of scared National Guardsmen made a huge mistake and opened fire. They weren't oredered to do so by the government. It was a mistake. It was not the deliberate actions of the military.

Can you say Spin? Why were the Gaurdsmen there with weapons if there wasn't a possibility they would fire them? I'm sure the Chinese probably spin their "huge mistake" the same way.

The syphilis tests were the actions of a small group of doctors. It was not the approved policy of the US government.

The first statement is true, the second is false. The government office supervising the study was the predecessor to today's Centers for Disease Control (CDC)

When it was discovered it was ended immediately.

uhhmm, like, all the people were already dead!!?!

Then it was widely reported in the press so that there is little chance that anything like it will happen again.

Oh Really? May be you should read this and this

Japanese interment occurred during a World War.

A lot of bad things happened during wars, I not sure how that makes anyone think they weren't bad.

Slavery? 150 years ago. And we fought a war to end it.

Modern spin, the civil war was fought over economics, secession and pride. Slavery may have ended in the US, but racism is still going strong. By the way, did you ever read the speech where Abe Lincoln said the whites and blacks shouldn't mix? It is out there. For this side of the story, read Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream.

Political prisoners? Name one.

Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.
Michael Billington
Mumia Abu-Jamal
Dick Czubinski
Leonard Peltier
geronimo ji Jaga Pratt
Marilyn Buck
Janine Phillips Africa
Pu`uhonua Dennis "Bumpy" Kanahele
James E. Grant Jr.
Gunther Russbacher
Mario Moorhead
Oscar Lopez Rivera
and probably me if I keep talking like this
Something interesting to read.
America is a great place to live and work, but certainly far from perfect. Only by acknowledging our problems do we have any hope of confronting or working through them.
[This message has been edited by Andrew Shafer (edited June 08, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Andrew Shafer (edited June 08, 2001).]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
Hey I was trying to put a bit of a different perspective on things. I'm a great believer in looking at the bigger picture. Personally no I don't think all of those things are right, of course not. But equally I don't think dropping a nuclear bomb ..TWICE on Japan was right either. When I think of the innocent people most of whom were not even born when the bombs were dropped who are still suffering the after effects of that ... and the many more yet to come who will also suffer it makes me sick to my stomach!
Now, you may or may not know this, but actually I am what I have learned is known as a "Yankophile" I have alaways loved American culture, I've loved every minute I've spent over there and I hope to spead many more. But just as I don't agree with many of the things my government do or don't do I don't agree with some things America, or China, or Japan, or France, or South Africa or any other country do. My main worry is America trying to take over the world by enforcing their culture, and their values upon everyone else. I'm not saying England wasn't once guilty of this, but I wouldn't have agreed with that either.
[This message has been edited by Angela Poynton (edited June 08, 2001).]

If you want to debate about the right or wrong of dropping atomic bombs on japan during a war then we can start a new thread and I will gladly debate you on that topic. However, we are talking about what China is doing today, not what the US did 55 years ago.
As far as Americans forcing their culture on you, last time I checked Steven Speilberg was not standing over foreigners with a gun forcing them to watch ET.

[Greg Harris]

to expand on Speilburg... Disney created a NEW ending for the new Pearl Harbor movie... God forbid we tell the truth and even so much as hint that Japan bombed us first! i do not think they are changing it here, just the overseas versions. we bend over backwards these days just to make sure we do not offend anyone.